Adventure: Lord Byron’s Economic Woes (DM: Tenchuu, Judge: H.M.Gimlord)

[H.M.Gimlord]

[sblock=Ruling][sblock=The technical P.I.T.A. ruling]According to the PHB, the locations of the kobolds should be unknown to any given PC only if a stealth check beats the passive perceptions of that PC. This being the case, I'm assuming that when a kobold moves out of LOS that it instinctively makes a stealth check. Moving out of LOS gives the kobold total concealment so in order to locate the kobolds exactly, the PC's passive perception needs to beat the kobold's stealth roll by at least 10. If stealth is beaten by anything less than 5, the kobold is hidden. If the advantage is between 5 and 9 inclusive, then, you will not see his location on the map, you will only know that he 'went that-a-way.' so to speak.

Additionally, a kobold can only make an immediate stealth check after a move action. If he uses an effect to shift, this does not count, and the PCs know where he is.

Remember that LOS is only one form of detection. Noise and sometimes smell can also be a way of detecting a kobold's location.

Tenchuu: I suggest you make stealth rolls for your kobolds with the above conditions:

Hergunna has the highest PP (19)
Kobold Dragonshields and Skirmishers have +9 for stealth, Slingers have +10
Roll for each kobold

In the example of a Skirmisher:

Any 1d20+9 roll that totals less than 9 (in other words a nat 1) is visible to the PCs by way of hergunna RPing a warning to the other PCs

A total of between 10 and 15 will not reveal the kobold, but hergunna will know the general direction of the kobold by way of the DM letting hergunna know (N,S,E,W), but not how many squares.

A total greater than 15 (nat 6) is completely hidden and has CA even on a ranged attack if it does not move out of concealment.[/sblock][sblock=The "Keep your DM from taking for ever posting updates" ruling]Of course, with a +9 against a 19 PP, it is highly unlikely that the PCs will ever really get to see a kobold outside of LOS. Since the previous ruling taxes Tenchuu a great deal, I suggest that Tenchuu roll 1d20 every round. If he gets a nat 1 (very possible considering IC's record), he should roll 1dX where X is the number of kobolds rounded down to the nearest die size. The result is the number of kobolds that are visible. I think this would satisfy Tenchuu and the PCs without overburdening the DM. Plus, it might add some comedy . Hey. The are, after all, kobolds.[/sblock]Remember. The point of the game is for everybody (including the DM) to have fun without any one party having a significant technical advantage/handicap over the other. Whether that be game play or prep time . My ruling is that you do it the second way. It makes things easier for everybody.[/sblock]

 

[Tenchuu]

Hergunna focuses on the enemies as they retreat, but the Kobold Slingers moved with great stealth. He tried to listen for their movements, but they were silent ahead of him. However, while he listened, he heard movement from behind. Silently, he motioned to the others inside the building, and they heard it too, pointing at the south wall and nodding. They weren't certain, but it sounded like more than one foe.

Hergunna, having attacked a skirmisher earlier, suspected it was the same foe. Perhaps with reinforcement?

[sblock=Stealth Rolls]
Kobolds Slingers: 1D20 => 19
Result: +10, so 29, and they remain Invisible

Kobold Skirmisher: 1D20 + 9 => 15
Result: More than one enemy is lurking on the south side of the main building
Location: Somewhere in the hidden map area from O9 to O16
[/sblock]

 

[ryryguy]

[sblock=ooc]Regarding stealth, LOS, etc... first of all, I just want to make it clear that I'm not complaining about how Tenchuu has been handling it. I don't think this has been putting the PCs at any significant disadvantage in this fight. I only brought it up because I happened to be reading a thread on this exact subject on the WotC rules forum, where the rules monkeys were saying that if something is not Hidden (using Stealth), then you know its exact location regardless of LOS.

Well, and also because it makes it harder for me to post Hergunna's move... I'm going to have to post something like "Hergunna moves to such-and-such square, can she see them now?" Not a big deal, just slows things up a little bit.

That being said...

[sblock=The technical P.I.T.A. ruling]Moving out of LOS gives the kobold total concealment so in order to locate the kobolds exactly, the PC's passive perception needs to beat the kobold's stealth roll by at least 10. If stealth is beaten by anything less than 5, the kobold is hidden. If the advantage is between 5 and 9 inclusive, then, you will not see his location on the map, you will only know that he 'went that-a-way.' so to speak.[/sblock]

The business about beating the stealth check by 5 or 10 comes from PHB page 281, under the "Targeting What You Can't See" sidebar, "Make a Perception Check" paragraph. This got errata'd, part and parcel of the overhaul they did on Stealth. The new "Make a Perception Check" rules is simply that if you beat the Stealth check, you know where it is:
[sblock=Errata]Invisible Creatures and Stealth: If an invisible creature is hidden from you (“Stealth,” page 188), you can neither hear nor see it, and you have to guess what space it occupies. If an invisible creature is not hidden from you, you can hear it or sense some other sign of its presence and therefore know what space it occupies, although you still can’t see it.
Make a Perception Check: On your turn, you can make a Perception check as a minor action (page 186) to try to determine the location of an invisible creature that is hidden from you.[/sblock]

I think that though this might be less realistic, it certainly lowers the P.I.T.A factor significantly. It's a simple opposed check with no math, and either you know where it is, or you don't.

I do like to play by the rules, but I don't mind when a DM uses common sense, especially when it makes the game run more smoothly and more clearly. It seems fine to let the kobolds make Stealth checks after using Shifty to shift, even if technically it's a minor action and not a move action. I do think we should obey the errata as far as saying that you only need to beat the Stealth check normally, not by 5, in order to simply detect the unseen creature. But common sense says when something's out of line of sight, it's hard to know its exact location, particularly if you haven't spotted it recently (like with the kobolds coming up from the south). So applying the pre-errata rules for knowing only general direction, instead of exact location, unless you beat Steath by a certain amount, seems okay. The DM is also perfectly entitled to apply circumstance modifiers for distance, or distractions, or a loud environment.

I'm glad that you did make a check for the kobolds sneaking up from the south - and also glad that Hergunna beat it. I think it would have been unfair to the players if the kobolds could automatically sneak up on us just because we can't see them. It also forces the kobolds to make a tactical choice - if they move more than 2 squares at a time, they get a -5 on their Stealth checks. (Although, I think we've given these particular ones plenty of time to get here at a careful pace. )

Finally, of course, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. All this stuff applies to the PCs, as well. We can't sneak up automatically on the kobolds in the buildings while they don't have LOS to us - we also have to beat them with a Stealth check. We also have to decide whether to move fast at -5 or slow. In fact, the errata probably hurts the PCs more than the monsters - in almost any party some if not most of the PCs will have bad Stealth checks, and could really benefit from the effective +5 in the original rules.

Well, enough rules blather. I'll post a move shortly.[/sblock]

 

[ryryguy]

Hergunna barely notices the nick from the sling stone. Her head swivels around to the opposite direction as she hears a noise from around the corner. She catches the eyes of her comrades, whispers "More skirmishers coming!", holds up three fingers, then points towards the south corner, as she makes a circling motion with her other hand.

Then she steps up on the bed, which creaks loudly under her weight, and lopes to the north, pressing close to the side of the building. She reaches the corner and looks around.

// Well, if it weren't for that one dang skrimisher I'd slide east and try to catch the slingers hiding in the west building, too... but I'm going to play it a little safer and swing west. I can still catch three of them.

Seeing a skirmisher guarding her intended prey, Hergunna snorts, "You again, huh?" and scrambles to the west, putting a little distance between herself and the kobolds. She peers closely at the slinger closest to her and gives him a quick wink.

Then, she spreads her arms, visually bracketing her opponents, and lets fly a storm of sharp thorns. The kobolds howl in pain as the finger-length missiles pierce their scales. The attack does not do a great deal of damage, but the painful thorns are very distracting (-4 penalty to all defenses until end of Hergunna's next turn).

The druid is not quite finished. Should be easy to call the madness of bloodthirst from these creatures... it's close to the surface already... She emits a howling laugh in their direction, which seems to stir a bit of dust in the vicinity of the skirmisher and his nearest ally. Their eyes instantly take on a reddish hue and they wave their weapons furiously, barking with rage. "Yeah, yeah, scaly, come on! Let's see what you got!" Hergunna taunts them.

[sblock=Actions]Move: to H8, then H7->G6.
Minor: Hunters Quarry vs. slinger at F8.
Standard: Thorn Spray... G7 is the origin square, attacks two slingers plus the skirmisher. All three hit (yay!) for near minimum damage (boo!). 6 damage vs F10 and G11, 7 damage vs. F8. All three are at -4 to all defenses until end of Hergunna's next turn.
(Action Point) Standard: Call of the Beast @ F10, targeting that slinger plus the skirmisher. Both hit (thanks to thorn spray penatly, whew!). Neither kobold can gain combat advantage until end of Hergunna's next turn. Additionally, on their turn, they take 9 psychic damage when they make any attack that doesn't include Hergunna's ally nearest to them as a target. (Note, Hergunna does not count as her own ally, so if they attack her, they take the damage. So please attack her you dumb kobolds! )[/sblock]
[sblock=Hergunna stat block]Hergunna- Female Human Druid 1
Passive Perception: 19, Passive Insight: 19
AC:16, Fort:13, Reflex:15, Will:16 -- Speed:7
HP:31/31, Bloodied:15, Surge Value:7, Surges left:6/9
Initiative +3
Action Points: 1, Second Wind: Not Used
Powers: Fire Hawk, Call of the Beast, Chill Wind, Savage Rend, Wild Shape, Thorn Spray, Summon Pack Wolf, Hunter's Quarry
[/sblock]

 

[H.M.Gimlord]

[sblock=Ruling addendum]I'll allow active perception checks against the value of Tenchuu's single roll. Sorry. I missed that one, and I think it is fair (Ryry,Tenchuu: Sorry if that makes Ryry rethink his move).

I opted for the 5/10 rule just because you've got some distance and hard structures between yourselves and your enemies. When individual movements start to dictate stealth (such as running from bush to rock or hiding under the bed, etc..., I think going to the errata version of things will be apropos.

Also (though I think this was implied), every hidden kobold or PC that moves more than 2 squares must make another Stealth Check at -5 against PP.[/sblock]

 

[Tenchuu]

[sblock=ooc]
Ryry, no worries. Being a rules lawyer is all about attitude, and you don't have an attitude about it. Your just trying to make sure we're all operating under the same set of rules (which is a good idea since I am relatively new to this system). That's why we have a judge, so it's not a problem at all.

That said (especially the part about me being new to the system), I'm not sure the rule snippet you posted would apply. Maybe it does, but when I read invisible creatures, that makes me think they are using a power/natural ability which renders them invisible, rather than an obstacle makes it physically impossible to see them. But, again, I may be apply common sense where it has no business being.
[/sblock]

 

[Tenchuu]

[sblock=Corner]
I'll let you peek at H8, so it only costs 4 move.
[/sblock]
[sblock=Map]

[/sblock][sblock=Status]
Wil Rando (20): K7 4/28 HS 8/10 AP 0 Majestic Word used twice. SW Used. Bloodied, Prone
Tessa Tressd'n (20): K9 11/23 THP 0/3 HS 6/7 AP 2 Bloodied
Hergunna (20): K8 27/31 HS 6/9 AP 1
Kane (20): K10 11/35 THP 3/3 HS 5/10 AP 0 Second Wind Used Bloodied
Stanng (20): J9 13/25 HS 7/10 AP 0

Kobold Dragonshield (6) - H15 13/36 THP 0/5 Bloodied, Disarmed
Kobold Skirmisher (2) - G11 27/27
Kobold Slinger (2) - F8 24/24
Kobold Slinger (2) - F10 24/24
Kobold Slinger (2) - ?D7? 24/24
Kobold Slinger (2) - ?C7? 24/24
Kobold Skirmisher (2) - O?-P? 25/27
Kobold Skirmisher (2) - O?-P? 27/27
Guard Drake (6) - L9 -3/48
Guard Drake (6) - J10 -1/48 Dead
Kobold Dragonshield (6) - H10 -13/36 THP 0/5 DEAD
Kobold Dragonshield (6) - J11 -20/36 THP 0/5 DEAD (now pulp)
Kobold Wyrmpriest (6) - K12 -6/36 DEAD (and burning)
[/sblock]

 

[ryryguy]

Thanks for the update... I have no time to post now though, will try to do so later tonight...

 

[ryryguy]

[sblock=ooc]I updated my previous post with my completed turn. Hit three of them with thorn spray, yay!

I'm not sure if we're quite ready to pull the trigger on Tessa using her Sleep spell now, but it does seem like a good move. The logical place for her to do it is centered on D6. As a burst two, this should hit both the revealed slingers and presumably the two hidden ones as well. Hergunna is outside that area (I was being careful )

With the -4 from the thorn spray on two of them, it seems like now is a good time to do it. The only reason I could really see to wait is if we hope the skirmisher will also bunch up with them and get caught, but then the -4 will be gone. Or, it we're just trying to save Sleep. But with other skirmishers closing from the south, I think it's probably time to use it.

Either way, I also think it would make sense for Tessa to use a second wind now, spending an action point to do so if necessary.

(I hope LadyJane comes back too!)[/sblock]

 

[Tenchuu]

[sblock=Disappearing Players]I guess everyone has been getting busy with real life. Do you two want to wait, or do you want me to RP their turns?[/sblock]