AI is stealing writers’ words and jobs…

Art Waring

halozix.com
As I said, I won't engage you on this as I feel that the discussing the effective democratic working of a 450-million persons union is political in nature.
Fair enough. This conversation is taking up a lot of my time, so I will leave you with this thought.

Some people don't want to live in a world under corporate control. Some of us will go the exact opposite direction than the rest of the herd, because we don't want to follow, we just want to go our own way.

I am always reminded of Mal's speech in "Out of Gas" in times like this.

"No matter how long of the arm of the alliance (corporations) might get, we'll just get ourselves a little further..."


I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Well, think of it like someone watching everything you are doing while working in Adobe, violating your privacy without your knowledge or consent. Maybe you don't care about your own privacy, but I sure as hell do.

As an artist, my own artistic process is mine alone. No one has the right to monitor how I work or how I choose to create art without my consent. I use advanced techniques that I developed myself, including complex layering and other methods that I have spent two decades perfecting.

No one has the right to steal another artists process if they don't want to share it. (I have no problem with other artists sharing their techniques as this is a personal choice about how much you are willing to share about yourself with the public, but it is still their personal choice, not a choice forced upon them by Adobe). The fact that you only place value on the final output is proof alone that you don't understand what it takes to make art at a professional level.

Artists must go through several stages of creation & feedback to reach a finished result. This takes time, and sometimes you will need to make changes to accommodate a client if they feel something needs changing. This can go on until you are happy with the result. Then the process of inking begins, and the piece really starts to come to life. Coloring a piece then takes further time. This entire process can take weeks or months depending on your ability to work at a professional level.
I don't know how long this has been there, but I found this in Adobe's Terms and Conditions under Privacy. They all may have agreed to that invasion without reading the terms. I know I never trudge through the terms.

"2.2 Our Access to Your Content. We may access, view, or listen to your Content (defined in section 4.1 (Content) below) through both automated and manual methods, but only in limited ways, and only as permitted by law. For example, in order to provide the Services and Software, we may need to access, view, or listen to your Content to (A) respond to Feedback or support requests; (B) detect, prevent, or otherwise address fraud, security, legal, or technical issues; and (C) enforce the Terms, as further set forth in Section 4.1 below. Our automated systems may analyze your Content and Creative Cloud Customer Fonts (defined in section 3.10 (Creative Cloud Customer Fonts) below) using techniques such as machine learning in order to improve our Services and Software and the user experience. Information on how Adobe uses machine learning can be found here: http://www.adobe.com/go/machine_learning."
 

Art Waring

halozix.com
I don't know how long this has been there, but I found this in Adobe's Terms and Conditions under Privacy. They all may have agreed to that invasion without reading the terms. I know I never trudge through the terms.

"2.2 Our Access to Your Content. We may access, view, or listen to your Content (defined in section 4.1 (Content) below) through both automated and manual methods, but only in limited ways, and only as permitted by law. For example, in order to provide the Services and Software, we may need to access, view, or listen to your Content to (A) respond to Feedback or support requests; (B) detect, prevent, or otherwise address fraud, security, legal, or technical issues; and (C) enforce the Terms, as further set forth in Section 4.1 below. Our automated systems may analyze your Content and Creative Cloud Customer Fonts (defined in section 3.10 (Creative Cloud Customer Fonts) below) using techniques such as machine learning in order to improve our Services and Software and the user experience. Information on how Adobe uses machine learning can be found here: http://www.adobe.com/go/machine_learning."
Yeah I see it, the problem is that no one knows when they made the changes to their terms of service, because they never made a public notice (to the best of my knowledge anyway). A lot of artists are saying they didn't get any notice at all of this change, and thus they were never asked for their consent to agree to these terms. Changing the terms without prior notification is pretty scummy IMO, but I think I will have to do some more investigation into this before I make a final assessment on Adobe.

This is similar to IG as well, that changed their terms of service recently to allow for data training on anything on their app.

The difference is that instagram is free (and when a product is free, you are the product), while Adobe is a subscription service. You are paying to have access to the CC to make professional grade graphics, but this shouldn't have to come with a clause that they can strip away any privacy you should have already.

The facts (on data) are as follows:

In the present and the future, data is more valuable than oil (and will likely get more valuable). The new economy will be a data-based economy (according to ai experts). It is so instrumental to ai-tools that OpenAI is valued at 80-100 billion for its methods of scraping said "fair use" data and making generative tools with that data.

If personal data is indeed that valuable that corporations project over a trillion dollars in profit over the next few years from using that scraped data, then maybe they should have to pay for that data rather than stealing it outright.

Musicians get royalties, why don't artists get royalties when their data is used in a training model?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yeah I see it, the problem is that no one knows when they made the changes to their terms of service, because they never made a public notice (to the best of my knowledge anyway). A lot of artists are saying they didn't get any notice at all of this change, and thus they were never asked for their consent to agree to these terms. Changing the terms without prior notification is pretty scummy IMO, but I think I will have to do some more investigation into this before I make a final assessment on Adobe.

This is similar to IG as well, that changed their terms of service recently to allow for data training on anything on their app.
Adobe last updated it's Terms and Conditions Aug 2023. Like any other app or program that makes such changes, a pop up appears that requires you to acknowledge that you read and understand the new Terms and Conditions. If you do, you are agreeing to have your stuff used for machine training.

It seems likely that it was updated to allow machine learning at that time and anyone who continued using Adobe after that gave away their privacy with the processes for content that they created. It also seems likely that like me, almost no one actually read the Terms and Conditions before clicking that they agreed and just kept using Adobe.
The difference is that instagram is free (and when a product is free, you are the product), while Adobe is a subscription service. You are paying to have access to the CC to make professional grade graphics, but this shouldn't have to come with a clause that they can strip away any privacy you should have already.
It doesn't have to, but the company decided that they wanted it in there for use in training their AI, so they put that clause in and had people agree to it in order to continue using their product.

I'm curious about whether those who did not agree to it have had their processes used for the machine learning.
In the present and the future, data is more valuable than oil (and will likely get more valuable). The new economy will be a data-based economy (according to ai experts). It is so instrumental to ai-tools that OpenAI is valued at 80-100 billion for its methods of scraping said "fair use" data and making generative tools with that data.

If personal data is indeed that valuable that corporations project over a trillion dollars in profit over the next few years from using that scraped data, then maybe they should have to pay for that data rather than stealing it outright.

Musicians get royalties, why don't artists get royalties when their data is used in a training model?
If you agree to give it away, you don't get paid. The man who invented the polio vaccine gave it to the world instead of keeping it for himself and making money off of it. There are music artists who give their art away for free.
 

Adobe last updated it's Terms and Conditions Aug 2023. Like any other app or program that makes such changes, a pop up appears that requires you to acknowledge that you read and understand the new Terms and Conditions. If you do, you are agreeing to have your stuff used for machine training.

It seems likely that it was updated to allow machine learning at that time and anyone who continued using Adobe after that gave away their privacy with the processes for content that they created. It also seems likely that like me, almost no one actually read the Terms and Conditions before clicking that they agreed and just kept using Adobe.

This is the general behaviour. I wonder if it's because people trust the companies so much as to sign a contract without reading it or if they are just wanting to use the software and prefer not to look into it to avoid having to make hard choices or they just don't care (assuming that "selling your firstborn" or anything too problematic would be prevented by consumer protection laws).

It doesn't have to, but the company decided that they wanted it in there for use in training their AI, so they put that clause in and had people agree to it in order to continue using their product.

Indeed. "Free" is often a hint (though open source software is free and devoid of such trap), but "attractively priced" is certainly a way to entice people into using your product. And subscription models look attractively priced, deceptively so sometimes. The roughly-inflation adjusted price of the last non-subscription Adobe Suite would be in the 4k USD range, not something one would buy on a whim, even if intended for professional use.


If you agree to give it away, you don't get paid. The man who invented the polio vaccine gave it to the world instead of keeping it for himself and making money off of it.

Much better to give it to the world than to a single company...
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This is the general behaviour. I wonder if it's because people trust the companies so much as to sign a contract without reading it or if they are just wanting to use the software and prefer not to look into it to avoid having to make hard choices or they just don't care (assuming that "selling your firstborn" or anything too problematic would be prevented by consumer protection laws).
I don't think it's either trust of companies(as I see the opposite overwhelmingly) or hard choices. I think it's more that it takes a lot of effort. I know that I don't want to slog through 12-20 pages of terms and conditions whenever an update happens
Indeed. "Free" is often a hint (though open source software is free and devoid of such trap), but "attractively priced" is certainly a way to entice people into using your product. And subscription models look attractively priced, deceptively so sometimes. The roughly-inflation adjusted price of the last non-subscription Adobe Suite would be in the 4k USD range, not something one would buy on a whim, even if intended for professional use.
That's a lot of money!
Much better to give it to the world than to a single company...
This is a personal decision and not one that can or should be expected to happen. If artist A wants to give away his art and artist B wants to sell his, neither one should be looked down upon for his choices.

That said, things like pharmaceutical price gouging really make me angry. It's okay to make money off of a product that people need to live. It's not okay to bleed them dry just because you have the only supply of it. :mad:
 


FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I beg to differ. Terms like theft carry a moral weight other infractions do not. Tax evasion can be described as theft using a broad definition, and yet many people wouldn't balk at deducting non eligible expanses. I think using them inappropriately could be way to make things look worse than they really are. It can be an approximation (and therefore it would be nitpicking to point it out) or an hyperbole (and thus deserving pointing out to defuse the rhetorical effect).

Also, it's especially important because it crosses international boundaries to be precise, because several countries can find several solutions to the problem, each adapted to their own situation (no copyright (San Marino), no art [aren't some muslim countries banning the representation of man altogether? or is it a thing of the past], opt-out, opt-in, no AI [Dune?])... There is no reason that what is good for the people of X is good for the people of Y. There are countries that make mandatory things that are forbidden in other and many more examples of things deemed totally harmless in some that are offenses elsewhere. Those countries can be both right at the same time.





By using the word "fair", you're positionning the debate into the field of morality. Everyone is using people's work without fair compensation. We don't pay anything to the inventors of the language we use, to the people who designed the numbers we use... because the law has made boundaries on the limit of time copyright protection applies to. Why is X years fair, and X-1 unfair? It's a tough question, but that's the job of lawmakers to take every view into account and produce texts that are optimal. Also, we are all dwarfs sitting on the shoulders of giants, and nobody would imagine that a scientist who make a breakthrough is a thief because he worked on the ideas of others without compensation. That ideas and concept can't be protected is also legal, but could be seen as unfair by a definiton as wide as "using people's work".




And would it change anything? What is your stance on open source weights, who by definition don't earn anything to their author? This a concrete example, not an abstract theoretical one, as many very good LLM are open-source.



No, but it compensate creators in general, who had access to free education in art, free museums with extensive displays to get their inspiration from, public infrastructure like the Internet and grew in peaceful enough countries that they could become artists instead of being enrolled in a militia. Collective compensation is as fair as individual compensation, from a moral perspective, if it is devoted to enrich the social background that made learning artistic skills possible. Car pollutes, fumes diminish the quality of life of people and yet they are not compensated individually, but fuel taxes are devoted (in part) to fund environmental policies, so the damage I sustain by living in a city is compensated by having a natural reserve at the other side of the world. Do you think it's unfair? I don't. A fair compensation doesn't necessarily mean an individual compensation.



I am not what if'ing. I am proposing solutions, based on existing process not unlike the one you describe. That you felt robbed isn't something I'll dispute, and as a user of CD to store archive of data, I felt robbed by a similar policy of having to pay a tax despite not using it to infringe copyright (in France's case, it's was implemented as a tax on physical media). Interested parties have a hard time determining what's best, because of course their own interest blur the thing. At the time I'd have said "it's not my problem, the artists should just sue whomever is using CD to copy films and music instead of robbing me for using my own data", which was materially unfeasible. It took a lot of restraint to see that it was the a good possible middle ground, especially when funding public policies instead of being reversed to a few "big names" production houses.
You are working from a theoretical perspective which is fine, however practically speaking I’ve had AI reproduce large chunks of word for word d&d 5e descriptions in response to a single prompt.

If that end result was given by any person or algorithm it would be deemed copyright infringement.

I posted this somewhere on the site for an example but don’t recall which thread.
 

That's cool, I wonder how long it took them to come up with the name and I like how Grimes is telling her fans to go with it and offering a 50/50 share deal.
You are working from a theoretical perspective which is fine, however practically speaking I’ve had AI reproduce large chunks of word for word d&d 5e descriptions in response to a single prompt.

If that end result was given by any person or algorithm it would be deemed copyright infringement.

I posted this somewhere on the site for an example but don’t recall which thread.
Yes, you used a very intentional prompt to get what you wanted, we went over this before because when I tried it on chatgpt it said "I'm not allowed to do that" and to use criminal law parlance "the intent follows the bullet" or to do it in the modern style:

claims it can be used to break copyright law
makes it break copy right law
surprised Pikachu face when it does it

@Jfdlsjfd 7,500 Online Shoppers Unknowingly Sold Their Souls

A court’s decision in Major v. McCallister "failure to read an enforceable online agreement, as with any binding contract, will not excuse compliance with its terms." basically from a few other cases as long as the terms are reasonable and fair they can be enforced.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Yes, you used a very intentional prompt to get what you wanted, we went over this before because when I tried it on chatgpt it said "I'm not allowed to do that" and to use criminal law parlance "the intent follows the bullet" or to do it in the modern style:

claims it can be used to break copyright law
makes it break copy right law
surprised Pikachu face when it does it
I didn’t make it do anything. I gave it a prompt. That it then chose to break copyright law based on its programming isn’t on me. I had no way to predetermine what output it would give me.
 

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