D&D General All Dead Generations: "Classic Vs. The Aesthetic"

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Yora

Legend
My point is that these issues with the portrayal of race in D&D are deeply bound up in play aesthetics, as evidenced by the fact that you can’t get through an example of play under a gygaxian aesthetic without evil goblins coming up. Trying to talk about the latter without the former is like trying to discuss public education without talking about politics. The two subjects are intrinsically linked.
A while back I made the conscious decision to always examine every placement of humanoid monsters in my games and consider how it would feel if I just replace them with humans. If I were to create this encounter or lair for human NPCs, what would I do differently?
And it really starts feeling weird rather quickly. So in the end I decided to only have effectively humans in my setting, or humanoid creatures that are supernatural beings.

When I started work on my new campaign, I first considered opening it with Night's Dark Terror, but reskinning it with my own setting. And replacing all those goblins in the early parts with humans living in the forest and mountains turned out to be really hard. No matter how you turn it, it's always fortified farmsteads of the same people who live in the city, who get raided by howling hordes of backstabbing people living in the surrounding forest.

Night's Dark Terror is widely considered to be one of the best adventures. But much of its narrative is build on the aesthetic of the howling hordes of untrutstworthy savages. If you replace them with human bandits, you get a situation where peaceful frontiersmen live in an area that has a huge bandit population many days' ride from any road or town.

I think the problem of 5th edition in particular is that it has a narrative ideal, an aesthetic ideal, and game mechanic that all pull in completely different directions.
To make things genuinely work, two of these must be changed. And whether the narrative ideal is made to fit the mechanics, or the mechanics are changed to support the desired narratives, it seems to be the aesthetic that nobody is happy with. But the thing is that people hate the aethetic, but still want to keep all the same props. Some want the appearance of orcs, but without the essence of an orc. Whether that's still serving any purpose is at the end a matter of taste. But a problem with that is, and that's what Gus brought up in his post, is that familiar surface looks make people assume they come packaged with the established conotations. If you want to have the conotation removed from your game, one of the best way is to remove the images that represent those conotation.
 

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But, see, whenever that sort of thing gets suggested, the protestations of “humans with rubber masks!” start.
Why would it? Sure, it applies to many 'planet of the week' species in Trek, but I really don't think that things like Vulcans or Klingons are just humans in rubber masks (only portrayed by such.) And Uz of Glorantha most definitely aren't. And sure, perhaps they are not as deep as real life humans, but neither are fictional humans; there is always limits on how much can be portrayed in fiction. But I think these feel like real people, and they still come across as somewhat differnt to humans. Putting these things in setting actually adds something, it allows you to tell stories you otherwise couldn't. That's what I want.
 
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Faolyn

(she/her)
Aside from dragons, all of these are weird alien creatures at right angles with the world and dragons have this weird issue where D&D can't decide whether they're animals or supergeniuses so they're both instead.
That's because dragons are just big, scaly, winged cats.

Next time your PCs fight a dragon, have them do so at the edge of a cliff. Then have the dragon casually push them off that edge.
 

The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
In my experience of the intersection where Social Justice and Literary Criticism meet: Deconstruction is easy, Reconstruction is much harder.

Its often very easy to look at something and see its problematic influences or attitudes, and from there accept that obviously, morality means we do away with those elements. But often it can be hard to create and establish a new normal, the argument over whether fantasy races need to be different from humans beyond aesthetic is an example. The 'other' qualities being criticized are load bearing, especially in early DND, where they represent clear divisions between civilization and wilderness, and between 'ok to fight' and 'not ok to fight' in a way that doesn't threaten to slam the brakes on the game every time the players are faced with a situation, this is likely also the source of ADND's draconian alignment, if you know the fighter is evil (as with the paladin's steed) having explicit teams everyone plays for becomes a means of extending that simplicity. There is something to be said for how making physically diverse fantasy peoples statistically (and fictionally) the same in ability undermines the fantasy of their physical diversity.

The real answer is creative, we have to meaningfully generate fiction that recreates the kind of relationships we want in ways that are unproblematic. If we created orcs to be ok to kill, but hung that 'ok-ness' on colonialist tropes, then we need to find ways to create entities ok to kill that don't hang on colonialist tropes.

For an example of this, my Pathfinder setting features Mortals, Spirits, and the Profanity. Mortals are people who have souls that carry every alignment and can therefore hew in every direction, then there are spirits, who are created by psychopomps from the energy, memories, and ideals produced by mortal souls and harvested when they die, in the process of preparing them to be reincarnated into the world, while the profanity is an all consuming chaos that takes the shape of aberrations and such-- for some of my personal touchstone for the profanity, see Noragami as an example-- its basically a product, or at least attracted to the chaos of conflict (internal or external.) Its also based loosely on the notion of 'the unclean' in Shinto, which demands rituals and such to purify oneself, has taboos about touching the dead, and stuff like that, it transcends conventional alignment-- which in this setting now represent one's inner light and inner darkness (making 'evil' PCs very usable as anti-heroes.)

This layering changes things, but is designed to give me the elements of what I need while excising the problematic elements. Mortals are fully 'human' with a variety of cultures, but none of them are 'just' ok to kill or explicitly evil (although some center themselves on channeling that inner darkness I discussed, but I personally see a lot of myself in what I mean by 'darkness' so its not evil) so if you're contending with them, there's always a reason-- they've taken up banditry, they're part of an enemy army in an unfortunate but understandable political conflict, they claim the ruins you're delving in their territory (which, I'll talk about adventurers in a second.)

Spirits are manifestations of mortal soul energy, a fiend is literally your darkest emotions, a celestial is literally altruism, they can be pretty ok to fight too from the perspective that their relative lack of inner conflict can put them on a collision course with the more nuanced PCs from which you can't dissuade them-- a spirit of rage is literally rage and very little else, a spirit of righteous fury might ultimately be serving a good cause, but isn't exactly made of people's tolerance, or their capacity to care about collateral damage. Finally, the profanity is especially ok to kill, because its a force with an explicit intention to destroy everything and is alien in a way beyond the idea of 'intelligent life.' Its cosmic horror creatures, but without the link to a human other that links it into Lovecraft's racism, just nihilistic destruction.

Adventurers are 'Children of the Wind' people who, for whatever reason, are uprooted from their normal societies and don't fit in, people who either always were, or eventually became queer relative to their fellows. The name is a euphemism used by the Gods (there are many, they're spirits appointed to office, and many are minor deities of villages and such) because they blow into town with the wind and leave just as quickly. They come from anywhere, and usually develop a stronger kinship with one another than the people of their homeland, they transcend national borders-- they represent post-nationalist values, even as they work with or against nations in their adventures.

Then I took the stat blocks for a few ancestries (Goblinoids, mainly) and I reimagined them around their mechanics, Orcs became the Onika who are mortals whom worship the more spiritual Pathfinder Oni, who taught them how to resist imperial rule, defiance and pride. Goblins similarly came out of those who fled imperial rule to the forests and developed guerilla warfare tactics, becoming the Naarari (which is both a term for the people, and for their warrior tradition, which are basically Ninja)-- the civilization they both fled was also goblinoid, with the vahar (Half Orc Stats) as the progenitor and common person, and Hobgoblins as the upper aristocratic class. Racial differences in the setting are entirely the domain of powerful groups of gods reshaping their voluntary followers to one purpose or another.
 
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I think defining and elaborating on, say, goblin cultures and their worldviews would be welcome in the contemporary game, but it stands in stark contrast to the position that they need to be different (i.e. inherently evil) to serve as fodder for the PC combat machine. Is the point of elaborating difference for the sake of creating vivid and deep alternatives to the human societies in a given setting, or is it just to provide monsters for the pcs to kill?
Why would differnt mean inherently evil? That is a bloody stupid difference to have. The point of differentiating non-humans is the same than in any fiction such is done, it is to be speculative, it is to be evocative of strange and alien worlds it is to contrast them with humans to highlight certain themes. Stuff like that.

Also, @Crimson Longinus, you mentioned Klingons in the other thread, but I don't get how that's not the 'humans but in rubber masks' situation. Klingons are represented as having a particular culture, but that culture is basically comprehensible by the human characters as it is just an exaggeration of certain features of human culture. Unlike the Q or the Borg that are more truly alien.
They are not utterly alien, but I don't still think they're just humans. Sure, things like Borg are far more alien, but I think Klingons have good amount of 'alieness' for a thing that we might want to be playable in a RPG. And ultimately we are mostly talking about intelligent social humanoids, often mammals and hominids. They're not gonna be incomprehensibly alien and if they were we couldn't play them. Still, Klingons come across as having somewhat differnt instincts, priorities and values. How much that is cultural and how much biological I cannot say, and it doesn't really matter terribly much. Though to me they come across as species that would have evolved from some sort of apex predators. My orcs are and have always been influenced quite a bit by Klingons. In my current setting they're some sort of mix between Klingons, Burroughs' green Martians and Warcraft orcs.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
A while back I made the conscious decision to always examine every placement of humanoid monsters in my games and consider how it would feel if I just replace them with humans. If I were to create this encounter or lair for human NPCs, what would I do differently?
I feel like in most individual cases it wouldn’t make much difference to replace humanoid monsters with humans. But, if you did so in every instance where it didn’t seem to make much difference, the aggregate effect would be that your world would’t feel nearly as fantastical.
And it really starts feeling weird rather quickly. So in the end I decided to only have effectively humans in my setting, or humanoid creatures that are supernatural beings.
That’s a valid approach, if you want your setting to be very rooted in the mundane, with exceptions being rare but spectacular - Early Game of Thrones being a good example. But if you want a setting where the fantastical is part of everyday life, you can’t just use humans whenever you don’t explicitly need nonhumans. The fantastical is “needed” in place of the otherwise mundane in order to create such a setting feel.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
They're inherently interesting. Things that are different than I am are inherently interesting to me. I like diversity. What does the orc offer? It's not a human. What does the human offer? Nothing. We should remove them from the game.
How are they not human? How are they "inherently interesting"? Because if it just what they look like then that's not going to work for me.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
How are they not human? How are they "inherently interesting"? Because if it just what they look like then that's not going to work for me.
Why not? What’s inherently disinteresting about a character that looks different than a human but is otherwise basically human?

Humans are interesting. Characters with diverse appearances are interesting. Why does combining those things make them disinteresting?
 

I think the problem of 5th edition in particular is that it has a narrative ideal, an aesthetic ideal, and game mechanic that all pull in completely different directions.
To make things genuinely work, two of these must be changed. And whether the narrative ideal is made to fit the mechanics, or the mechanics are changed to support the desired narratives, it seems to be the aesthetic that nobody is happy with. But the thing is that people hate the aethetic, but still want to keep all the same props. Some want the appearance of orcs, but without the essence of an orc. Whether that's still serving any purpose is at the end a matter of taste. But a problem with that is, and that's what Gus brought up in his post, is that familiar surface looks make people assume they come packaged with the established conotations. If you want to have the conotation removed from your game, one of the best way is to remove the images that represent those conotation.

I agree. To see what this looks like when new players with varying understandings both of what "fantasy" and playing dnd entails, a moment in this celebrity game is instructive (first at 1:08:20 and then 1:31:45). In the video Gaten Matarazzo desperately wants his character to attack on sight, Finn Wolfhard is ambivalent, and David Harbour and Natalia Dyer (the adult players, incidentally) want to have their characters talk.

We can all probably relate to some version of this experience. Part of this dynamic comes down to playstyle, in particular the common playstyle of teenage boys, perhaps. But part of this is aesthetic, the assumptions we are bringing to the table--about the nature of fantasy creatures and the moral norms of the genre. It can certainly be worked through, but it's certainly not the case that the playstyles, narrative/aesthetic assumptions, and mechanics are working in harmony. I find it interesting in this case that even 3/4 were basically uninterested in combat, that's what happened anyway, though I'm not sure 5e can be totally blamed for that.

 

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