Alternatives to bows

[Fenris]

... weren't bows historically the best bang for your buck ranged weapon? I mean the only thing that x-bows have on bows is range and the simple weapon proficiency. And I think that's just for balance reasons. There's a reason that all the buttkickin ranged specialists use bows: bows rock.

(for SHAME Felix! )

Yes bows were the best bang for your buck, but they required a LOT of practice, which is why although very popular and effective in England, where yeoman were required to practice with them, the continental armies used crossbows.

So make long bows (or at least composite and or mighty) exotic weapons and make crossbows martial weapons.

The ranged specialist will still go with a bow, but Joe Fighter will stick with a crossbow. Mix in some of the other tweaks the fine folks in this thread have mentioned and you have a crossbow-centric world!

 

[Felix]

But wouldn't "training with the bow" mean Martial?

That, and I guess proficiencies depend on where you run your campaign... if it's in France, Joe Fighter will have his [simple weapon] X-bow. And then Joe Fighter will get wailed on by the English [exotic for the French] longbowmen. Whoops.

 

[jgsugden]

If I were you, I'd look beyond the rules for your options. Beyond the bow, nothing else in D&D is really an effective missile weapon at higher levels.

I use the following as an option when making magic items. It reflects the problem that you need multiple thrown missile weapons in a combat compared to one melee weapon for a battle.

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Magic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions

Exclusive Missile: This property can only be placed on a thrown ranged weapon. An exclusive missile weapon can be enchanted at a reduced cost. Calculate the cost for the magical enchantments on the weapon normally, then reduce them to 1/3 the normal total.
Except where otherwise noted in this description, treat this item as a nonmagical at any time other than the period between when it is thrown and when it hits an enemy (or otherwise stops flight) (ie; when stored, held or after hitting the enemy). As an example, an exclusive missile +5 dagger is nonmagic if used in melee, but if thrown, the weapon is treated as a +5 weapon. Even when being treated as nonmagical, exclusive missile weapons radiate magic normally under a detect magic spell (or other divination spell used to detect the magic present in magic items).
Exclusive missile weapons weigh 1/2 normal weight (at all times). If the weapon is intelligent, the intelligence (and the abilities tied to the intelligence of the weapon) function normally instead of being active only when being thrown.

Faint transmutation; CL NA; Craft Magic Arms and Armor Price +0 bonus.

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This allows PCs to have a good supply of magical throwing weapons without spending more money to aquire them than a melee fighter would spend.

I also have a version of greater magic weapon that acts like a normal greater magic weapon spell, except that it works on up to 3 nonmagical throwing weapons and gives them the exclusive missile trait as well.

 

[kigmatzomat]

... weren't bows historically the best bang for your buck ranged weapon? I mean the only thing that x-bows have on bows is range and the simple weapon proficiency.

Bows were great, if you could master them. England was rare in having a huge number of longbow masters. A crossbow could be given to any schmoe on a wall and he's got a decent shot at hitting if not an individual then at least a military formation at range.

Crossbows were also, IIRC, far more powerful than most bows, something that doesn't get properly modeled, I think. I remember one historical footnote that a tavern in europe has a breastplate with a fist sized hole in it from a bolt; the breastplate isn't notable because of the hole but because the wearer survived.

The damages just don't work. Heck, the d12 vs d8+str comparison rarely works since it only requires a str:14 weilder to make a longbow comparable to a heavy crossbow, str:16 for a shortbow. I personally allow strength crossbows; the alternative is to bump the damage to 2d6 light x-bow/2d8 heavy x-bow.

I mean, really, why are X-bows so slow? It takes a lot of effort to pull back the string. Why? It's a very strong pull. So why does the damage suck so much? .....

And I think that's just for balance reasons. There's a reason that all the buttkickin ranged specialists use bows: bows rock.

That, and there's few real-world restrictions on bows. Bows tend to work poorly when wet, can crack when cold, and dislike being kept strung. Admittedly it would turn into RuleMaster to have the -1 damage/wet, break bow on a fumble when cold or Fort save (15) for being strung 24x7 rules. But the low RoF gets applied to crossbows without the high pull that caused it.

 

[Stalker0]

Crossbows were also, IIRC, far more powerful than most bows, something that doesn't get properly modeled, I think. I remember one historical footnote that a tavern in europe has a breastplate with a fist sized hole in it from a bolt; the breastplate isn't notable because of the hole but because the wearer survived.

Yeah... when it comes to armor penetration xbows got it done. Some people use that as a mechanic, xbows remove +x from a person's armor for the purposes of the shot. So a xbow against full plate might only have +6 to worry about instead of a +8.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It sounds like there are two very different things you've mentioned you want to accomplish.

One is making non-bow weapons a serious option for a ranged specialist. This will probably require house rules except in some corner cases (the low strength marksman best served by a repeating crossbow), etc.

The other is making another viable option for fighters to carry as a backup ranged weapon. For this, you don't need any house rules. Crossbows aren't likely to be a very good choice past level 5 or so but for the fighter who has quickdraw (a viable feat for a number of character types who don't specialize in thrown weapons), thrown weapons like javalins have quite a few attractions. They always get the full strength bonus (which will be important for characters whose strength changes due to rage, etc), they generally only require one hand (which makes them attractive to sword and board types or two handed fighters who don't want to drop their main weapon), and some of them double as melee weapons (light hammer, dagger, throwing axe, etc)--a character with a returning throwing axe need not carry a "backup" weapon for ranged combat; his primary weapon is just fine for the job. (And throwing your +3 Holy Wounding Evil Outsider Bane Light Hammer of Returning is probably a good deal better than whipping out the +1 mighty composite longbow--even if you get full attacks with the bow on the next round). Someone else has pointed out the net but I think that's much more of a specialized tool than a ranged weapon--it doesn't necessarily compete with the bow; it fills another role entirely.

And, for non fighter classes, crossbows are a very viable option. They're the friend of clerics, wizards, and low-strength rogues everywhere.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

jgsugden - I really like that missile exclusive idea...

Although I can definitely see Elder-Basilisk pov that 'normal' returning weapons can be much better for certain types of fighter/weapon.

Thanks for the ideas, I'll have a chew over them and work out what I'm going to do with it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Javelins and spears are great thrown weapons. d6 and d8 respectively, plus you add strength. There short range again though.

Javelins are fine, but spears suck for a Ranged specialist.

As soon as you take the Rapid Shot feat or hit +6 BAB, you want to make more than one ranged attack per round. And with spears, you can't.

-Hyp.

 

[Ysgarran]

Javelins are fine, but spears suck for a Ranged specialist.

As soon as you take the Rapid Shot feat or hit +6 BAB, you want to make more than one ranged attack per round. And with spears, you can't.
-Hyp.

You can't take more than one ranged attack per round with spears? Are you making a distinction between shortspears and javelins? A shortspear can be thrown as a standard action, just like a Javelin. Quickdraw and Rapid Shot should apply equally to both weapons.

Ysgarran.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You can't take more than one ranged attack per round with spears?

That's right.

Are you making a distinction between shortspears and javelins?

That's right.

Edit - I take it back. I'm making a distinction between spears and javelins, not shortspears and javelins, in 3.5.

A shortspear can be thrown as a standard action, just like a Javelin.

That's wrong. It's a full round action to throw a two-handed weapon.

Edit - which applies to spears, but not to shortspears, in 3.5.

-Hyp.