Ampersand: Sneak Attack

[Lizard]

A +6 item and a +5 tome are together worth 173.500 gp. A level 20 character is expected to have 760.000 gp worth of stuff. Hong's DM isn't generous, he just plays the game by the RAW. It's yours who is stingy and has ingrained a perception of 3E into you that isn't accurate.

No personal offense meant by that, don't get me wrong. You're just using a houseruled version of 3E that's all.

Actually, my DM is obssessed with wealth-by-level guidelines; he's just very particular about what he hands out. Magic items are not easily come by, and while I assume a player mage could make one, my group rarely produces PCs who want to. (Last long-term D&D game...a swashbuckler/rogue[1], a ninja, a psion who never made items, and a warlock who ditto. We got to about 15h level and pretty much only made potions or scrolls.) In our current game (around 7th level now), we are a strike forces team for a powerful NPC; she pays us in magic items, in essence. So we get what the DM wants us to get. (All 'found loot' is her property, other than coin, preventing the 'bodies of our enemies are treasure troves for us!' problem. We can fight properly-equipped foes and not have +1 weapons dripping off us.)

In my last game, I think we had one pair of Gloves of Dexterity +4 as the most powerful ability-enhancing item. The ninja had them. Her hide skill was something like +25 or more when all was said and done. The joke was that she had invisibility at will.

Current game is a paladin, that warlock/cleric hybrid class, a ranger/sorcerer who didn't take magic missile, a rogue, and an ogre mage who won't gain a class level 'till he hits 12th...So far, there's been little interest in manufacutring magic items among the caster types. In this game, I have a +1 holy longsword, and I am "in debt" because of it; I don't get any magic or more than a stipend to live off of until my wealth-by-level syncs up with the item. (It's a plot-important weapon, that's why I've got it...)

But as you said, it's all aesthetics. When you were talking about "godlike" abilities, I assumed you mean natural, unenhanced. There's nothing extra-impressive about someone whose power comes from magic items. By contrast, in 4e, a high level character is frightfully good at everything simply by virtue of existing; at 20th level, he's got a minimum of +10 in every skill even when he's buck naked. I find this less aesthetically acceptable, simply because I can more easily "believe" in magic items than in natural uber-competence.

[1]Me. He had mostly charisma-enhancing stuff, because that fit his character concept better. I think he had a cloak+2 and one of those psion masks that give +ridiculous to Diplomacy and Bluff.

 

[Felon]

I can see why this post is 12 pages long before it's even noon. A post every 30 seconds or so. Doesn't somebody have some laundry to do or something?

Seriously, I'm a little underwhelmed. The impression I get is that the class has a lot of hardwired restrictions defining the class, particularly class skills and weapons. And other than the Tumble ability, everything is an attack. There aren't any maneuvers that set up the character for another maneuver, or provide defensive benefits, or anything very tactical at all. Nothing I see is very juicy at all.

 

[Kirnon_Bhale]

What KB noticed before is that shuriken doesn't appear on the list of weapons you can sneak attack with. This makes no sense thematically (they're an iconic weapon of the ninjae, after all) so the conclusion is that shuriken are lumped under the "light blades" category. It's crazy but it just might work.

This... (Thanks Hong)

If you look at the write up the shuriken can only fit into light blades (I feel like I am repeating myself) then when you look at the powers light blades are only associated with melee attacks thus the assumption that shuriken are going to be considered melee.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Seriously, I'm a little underwhelmed. The impression I get is that the class has a lot of hardwired restrictions defining the class, particularly class skills and weapons. And other than the Tumble ability, everything is an attack. There aren't any maneuvers that set up the character for another maneuver, or provide defensive benefits, or anything very tactical at all. Nothing I see is very juicy at all.

I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption that we're only seeing a fraction of the powers available to the rogue. (And how is something like feinting and prodding your opponent with your sword to move to a square of your choice not tactical? Especially when considering how this might interact with the other PCs present? Yes, it's an attack, but if you move an opponent into a flanked position - voila! You've set him up for more of your abilities. Or moved him so he's not flanking *you*. Now it's defensive.)

 

[HeinorNY]

That the 4E skill system is unnecessary as it doesn't fix anything. The same "problems" (although imo they are not problems at all) are still there.

The problems they wanted to fix are listed in R&C:
-High maintenance and full of little complexities.
-Skills too similar or too useless
-There are two strategies for handling skills, but only one really works.

It's still about priorities and character choices. You refer to it as 'problems' god knows why.
If the 4E skill system keeps that same characteristic from 3.5 skill system and it's also simpler and more straightfoward, than it fixed everything.

I'm still lost, are you complaining because 4E skill system didn't fix a problem that wasn't a problem in your POV??

 

[Lizard]

I can see why this post is 12 pages long before it's even noon. A post every 30 seconds or so. Doesn't somebody have some laundry to do or something?

Seriously, I'm a little underwhelmed. The impression I get is that the class has a lot of hardwired restrictions defining the class, particularly class skills and weapons. And other than the Tumble ability, everything is an attack. There aren't any maneuvers that set up the character for another maneuver, or provide defensive benefits, or anything very tactical at all. Nothing I see is very juicy at all.

Uhm...we've seen, what, 5 powers from the whole list? Let's be a little fair.

I think it's the equivalent of seeing magic missile, burning hands, and fireball, and concluding that all wizards can do is blow things up...

And the fact is, 4e wants you to be rolling to attack every round, so just about every power is going to involve an attack roll. Remember -- you are only having fun when you are attacking. If you are not attacking, you are not having fun. In 4e, you will have fun. The computer says so. The computer is your friend. Do you doubt the computer?

 

[Ahglock]

This... (Thanks Hong)

If you look at the write up the shuriken can only fit into light blades (I feel like I am repeating myself) then when you look at the powers light blades are only associated with melee attacks thus the assumption that shuriken are going to be considered melee.

yeah they definitely could be melee that can be thrown style weapons. I'm kind of thinking kunai knives, which i only know of through naruto might be what the shuriken look like. End result small stabby knives good for throwing.

 

[chaotix42]

I can see why this post is 12 pages long before it's even noon. A post every 30 seconds or so. Doesn't somebody have some laundry to do or something?

Seriously, I'm a little underwhelmed. The impression I get is that the class has a lot of hardwired restrictions defining the class, particularly class skills and weapons. And other than the Tumble ability, everything is an attack. There aren't any maneuvers that set up the character for another maneuver, or provide defensive benefits, or anything very tactical at all. Nothing I see is very juicy at all.

LOL I do have some laundry to do, thanks for the reminder!

I figure we've only seen a portion of the class, as Crimson Edge is "Rogue Attack 9" which to me signifies the level of the ability. That leaves us with 21-levels-worth of abilities left, and I'm also inclined to believe some of the other low-level abilities were snipped. I too hope (and expect) that the rogue gets a bit more than just attacks, but since she's a "striker" I can understand.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Seriously, I'm a little underwhelmed.

I was a little disappointed that it's so similar to 3e.

<- 4e hator.

 

[Cam Banks]

There are prescribed amounts of wealth by level in the DMG. If your DM wasn't adhering to them, he's deviating from the RAW. Deciding a character isn't going to have as much in the way of magic items as he's supposed to at a given level is like taking the feats out of a fighter's mouth. But by RAW, that +6 tome is very attainable.

I didn't say that I wasn't following the guidelines for wealth. What I'm saying is that the players didn't get to shop around for their items in order to score the tome +5 and stat booster +6. The RAW don't say "they should all have +X item Y at this level."

Cheers,
Cam