5E An Argument for Why Paladins are the Strongest Class in 5E D&D

fearsomepirate

Explorer
It's fairly easy to resolve things simultaneously, much like two Samurai launching at each other and both of them falling down dead.
5e has no rules for two Samurai Fighters to fight simultaneously. They fight sequentially, and whoever reaches 0 hp first dies.

In any case, you are free to do it however you like at your own table. But the book really does say they go at the same time.
It doesn't say all of their movements and actions are synchronized. "Everyone in the family eats dinner at the same time" does not mean everyone at the table eats in perfect synchronicity, with everyone grabbing their forks at the same moment, cutting the food with identical, exactly timed knife slices, chewing and swallowing at the same moment, etc.
 

Helldritch

Adventurer
I think it is safe to assume that even with exactly the same initiative number, the characters and their nemesis do not act simultaneously. You have to make a decision at some point. Personnaly, If a player and a group of monster share the same initiative result, I go:"
1) Highest dexterity score
then if 1 is a tie.
2) Players always win ties.

If two (or more) players share the same initiative result...
1) Highest dexterity score.
Or if it is a tie...
2) Each round the players decide between themselves who goes first.

If a pack (or two or whatever) of monsters get the same initiative result...
1) Highest dexterity score
Or if it is a tie...
2) I get to pick up which monster goes first, second, third and yaddi yadda.

I hope you all see the pattern here. :)

Edit: Added "the" in case two, point two between round and players. Damn the autocorrector...
 
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Helldritch

Adventurer
Also, what happens when 2 players tie for initiative?
See case two
If two (or more) players share the same initiative result...
1) Highest dexterity score.
Or if it is a tie...
2) Each round the players decide between themselves who goes first.

Problem solved.
 

Seramus

Adventurer
5e has no rules for two Samurai Fighters to fight simultaneously. They fight sequentially, and whoever reaches 0 hp first dies.
What rules do you need? They both take their actions and resolve them at the same time.
It doesn't say all of their movements and actions are synchronized. "Everyone in the family eats dinner at the same time" does not mean everyone at the table eats in perfect synchronicity, with everyone grabbing their forks at the same moment, cutting the food with identical, exactly timed knife slices, chewing and swallowing at the same moment, etc.
Cut it out with the strawman. Even in the cinematic case of two samurai killing each other, neither are moving in perfect synchronicity. Or to use Magic: the Gathering as an example, two Tims can ping each other for damage and both die. I've been doing it this way for years and the only issue I've ever had is with counterspell.
 

Ashrym

Hero
Here is the rule for initiative:

PHB pg 189 said:
Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time.

The DM ranks the combatants in order from the one with the highest Dexterity check total to the one with the lowest. This is the order (called the initiative order) in which they act during each round. The initiative order remains the same from round to round.

If a tie occurs, the DM decides the order among tied DM-controlled creatures, and the players decide the order among their tied characters. The DM can decide the order if the tie is between a monster and a player character. Optionally, the DM can have the tied characters and monsters each roll a d20 to determine the order, highest roll going first.
That's the default rule.
 

Ashrym

Hero
Exactly! Identical creatures have a single roll and go at the same time.
It does say that, but if a person continues then they are also tied for that initiative within the group and the DM just decides in which order each acts. That's how I experience it in practice, at any rate.
 

Seramus

Adventurer
It does say that, but if a person continues then they are also tied for that initiative within the group and the DM just decides in which order each acts. That's how I experience it in practice, at any rate.
Here's the thing. There is no highest dexterity among them because they are identical creatures. There is no tie because there was only a single roll for the entire group. So when do they go? At the same time.

This can only happen with DM controlled creatures, though, so it neatly avoids confusion between player characters since they always invoke a tie breaker (their choice or die rolls).
 

Ashrym

Hero
Here's the thing. There is no highest dexterity among them because they are identical creatures. There is no tie because there was only a single roll for the entire group. So when do they go? At the same time.

This can only happen with DM controlled creatures, though, so it neatly avoids confusion between player characters since they always invoke a tie breaker (their choice or die rolls).
"If a tie occurs, the DM decides the order among tied DM-controlled creatures..."

4 goblins have the same initiative count, for example, but the DM normally just states what each is doing in the order the DM determines just like a tie. I don't think going on the same turn is the same as precisely the same time. Generally a reaction to time it with a readied action is required for that.
 

Seramus

Adventurer
"If a tie occurs, the DM decides the order among tied DM-controlled creatures..."

4 goblins have the same initiative count, for example, but the DM normally just states what each is doing in the order the DM determines just like a tie. I don't think going on the same turn is the same as precisely the same time. Generally a reaction to time it with a readied action is required for that.
There's no tie, since there is only a single roll for the entire group.

I can totally understand DM's who run it sequentially.
But it's a neat rule that is often overlooked.
 
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Ashrym

Hero
There's no tie, since there is only a single roll for the entire group.
Which means each member of that group takes actions on the same turn, not at the same time. Initiative determines the order of the turns. It's the very first sentence of the rule.

A turn represent actions as they fit in the round, such as movement. Just because Bob the fighter moves 30 ft during the turn doesn't mean he was in both the starting location and ending location at the same time because both states occurred on the same turn.

A turn does not represent a specific point in time where all activities on the turn occur simultaneously.
 

Seramus

Adventurer
Which means each member of that group takes actions on the same turn, not at the same time. Initiative determines the order of the turns. It's the very first sentence of the rule.

A turn represent actions as they fit in the round, such as movement. Just because Bob the fighter moves 30 ft during the turn doesn't mean he was in both the starting location and ending location at the same time because both states occurred on the same turn.

A turn does not represent a specific point in time where all activities on the turn occur simultaneously.
"At the same time" is a valid order to take a turn. This only occurs in the case of identical creatures controlled by the DM, which avoids any confusion in adjudication. I think people assume the DM CANNOT choose "at the same time" for the order of his monster because of the tie breaker rules. But in the case of identical creatures the rules literally say they go "at the same time."
 

Ashrym

Hero
"At the same time" is a valid order to take a turn. This only occurs in the case of identical creatures controlled by the DM, which avoids any confusion in adjudication. I think people assume the DM CANNOT choose "at the same time" for the order of his monster because of the tie breaker rules. But in the case of identical creatures the rules literally say they go "at the same time."
Well, no. Initiative does not state anything happens at the same time. It says the go on the same turn. On the same turn is not the same thing as at that same time because a turn is not a specific point in time. At the same time on that turn is something you've added.

The group initiative check is just there to keep it faster and simpler.
 

Seramus

Adventurer
Well, no. Initiative does not state anything happens at the same time. It says the go on the same turn. On the same turn is not the same thing as at that same time because a turn is not a specific point in time. At the same time on that turn is something you've added.
It literally says they go at the same time. I think any further discussion has reached the "Agree to Disagree" point. But it was a pleasure having the chat.
 
Here's the thing. There is no highest dexterity among them because they are identical creatures. There is no tie because there was only a single roll for the entire group. So when do they go? At the same time.

This can only happen with DM controlled creatures, though, so it neatly avoids confusion between player characters since they always invoke a tie breaker (their choice or die rolls).
seems obvious that if players require a tiebreaker then so npcs. I guess they thought it would be obvious the dm Determines which creature goes when if they have the same initiative. Thank god for now more RAW 3.5e lawyering.
 

Seramus

Adventurer
seems obvious that if players require a tiebreaker then so npcs. I guess they thought it would be obvious the dm Determines which creature goes when if they have the same initiative. Thank god for now more RAW 3.5e lawyering.
I don't blame anyone for running it that way. It's definitely easier to handle everything sequentially.
 

fearsomepirate

Explorer
What rules do you need? They both take their actions and resolve them at the same time.
There's no such rule in 5e. We're talking about RAW, not your house rules.

Cut it out with the strawman.
Your position is that RAW, if two enemies of the same type cast a spell with instantaneous duration, like fireball, they both land at precisely the same moment due to the casters taking their turns at the same time, resulting in overlapping duration and thus only one of them doing damage. This can only be true if they're acting in perfect synchronicity. Since the spell duration is instantaneous, if they're not moving their arms and speaking the magic words at precisely the same time, the durations won't overlap. If one pauses for a tenth of a second to spit out his bubblegum before casting and the other doesn't, you've got no duration overlap.


Or to use Magic: the Gathering as an example
MtG isn't an example of D&D 5e.
 

Seramus

Adventurer
There's no such rule in 5e. We're talking about RAW, not your house rules.
My position is discussing RAW.
This can only be true if they're acting in perfect synchronicity. Since the spell duration is instantaneous, if they're not moving their arms and speaking the magic words at precisely the same time, the durations won't overlap. If one pauses for a tenth of a second to spit out his bubblegum before casting and the other doesn't, you've got no duration overlap.
The rules specifically say they happen at same time. There is nothing that prevents two DM controlled creatures from taking their turn at the same time. The precedent is literally written into the description of initiative. It even passes the common sense test, since we can both draw a gun and shoot each other successfully.

You don't have to agree with me, but I consider it RAW.
 

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