An Old Classic - Haste, And How To Handle It

[wedgeski]

Hi folks, here's the deal. For the first time in 3/3.5ed, I'm DM'ing a party with a sorcerer who has chosen haste as one of her spells. As is to be expected, it has increased the lethality of the party by an order of magnitude. Even with a full day's worth of encounters, it's a rare moment when the lot of them aren't buzzing around the battlefield in a blur, unloading entire extra attacks on my poor unsuspecting bad guys. The rogues and fighters are having a field day.

Now, against casters, this isn't too bad, because you can bet I'm dispelling and all that good stuff, but in the name of keeping pure melee encounters at the right EL challenging, I appeal for help in dealing with this phenomenon.

Some obvious things have worked in actual play. Splitting the party so that when the spell runs out they either have to regroup or only partially receive the benefit of a recast is partially successful, but relies on long combats to be effective. Keeping melee PC's on their toes and forcing them to move between attacks is also very good, but reduces the effectiveness of their opponents by making them Withdraw every other round or risk (deadly) AoO's. And naturally, attacking from the air or from distance are winners, but this kind of takes the 'melee' out of the equation.

What am I missing, if anything? Thanks for any help!

 

[MarkB]

3.5 haste is nice, but it shouldn't be giving you any massive problems. All it gives you is:

• +1 to attack, AC and Reflex saves
• +30 ft. enhancement bonus to movement rates (which doesn't stack with Boots of Striding and Springing, expeditious retreat, or any class's fast movement class feature except the barbarian's)
• One extra attack, but only when making a full attack.

Now, those are nice benefits, especially all packed into one multiple-target buff spell, but there's nothing in there which should have any DM tearing his hair out.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I'm old school, and many won't like my approach, but in my games, haste ages you a year and you must make a con check DC (5) or die, similar to the system shock of old. This cuts down the use of it quite a bit. I use system shock for a few other spells as well, it keeps polymorph in check, too.

 

[glass]

it's a rare moment when the lot of them aren't buzzing around the battlefield in a blur, unloading entire extra attacks on my poor unsuspecting bad guys.

Well, doing one or the other. You have to full attack to get the extra attack, and you have to move to get the extra movement; you can't do both in the same round.


glass.

 

[frankthedm]

Thats awful rough JR!

The Haste spell in my game fatigues [instantaneous, non dispelable] recipients until they consume a day's worth of food and water. The Spell hides the fatigue while it operates.

 

[wedgeski]

Now, those are nice benefits, especially all packed into one multiple-target buff spell, but there's nothing in there which should have any DM tearing his hair out.

Well, my hair is intact, but there's been such a radical shift in the game that I figure there must be something I'm missing.

In isolation those benefits may not seem like much, but to me their effect on combat is huge. The speed buff allows PC's to take huge advantage of the battlefield between attacks: rogues are almost always in a position to deal SA damage, and fighters can quickly put themselves back into a state where they can exercise a Full Attack. PC's which I might otherwise isolate and corner are only one round away from major assistance. Single moves put Medium PC's well out of reach of all but the fastest opponents, requiring them to make a double move to get back into combat and giving the PC a free action to buff/heal/whatever.

In fact I think it's the Speed buff, and these kinds of intangible benefits, that really make the spell a pain, even though it's that extra attack that does the most obvious damage.

I don't really consider nerfing the spell to be an option as we play as close to RAW as humanly possible. I would rather up my own game... hence this thread.

 

[wedgeski]

Well, doing one or the other. You have to full attack to get the extra attack, and you have to move to get the extra movement; you can't do both in the same round.

Of course. I was thinking of the combat as a whole.

 

[Legildur]

Wow, if I played in Frank's or JRRN's games I think I would simply take Fireball and an energy substitution feat and toast them all with 6HD (since sorceror casting) fire/acidballs instead. Or are they houseruled as well?

Sheesh, is Haste really that good? Sure it's handy, but isn't more damage up front in one lump (via fireball) more effective rather than spreading it over 6 rounds with extra attacks? I could only really see an advantage in a large melee-oriented party.

 

[Someone]

He´s a sorcerer, and took a spell that doesn´t benefit himself very much. Ask yourself if you´d prefer to have your melee fighter Displaced every combat, or being "unable" to bring hordes of low level enemies because he took Fireball, or bypassing many obstacles because he took Fly. If they are taking advantage of the increased movement, that´s because they are playing well and milking the max out of their resources.

 

[wedgeski]

He´s a sorcerer, and took a spell that doesn´t benefit himself very much. Ask yourself if you´d prefer to have your melee fighter Displaced every combat, or being "unable" to bring hordes of low level enemies because he took Fireball, or bypassing many obstacles because he took Fly.

Well, she 'loses' one action at the start of combat, and she has also taken fly, so she benefits greatly from the increased movement speed. Honestly, I would much rather she had taken fireball than haste, any day of the week.

If they are taking advantage of the increased movement, that´s because they are playing well and milking the max out of their resources.

Hey, don't get me wrong. My players work very cohesively and have developed proven, successful tactics in combat. I totally respect that. My problem is, I need to challenge them, and at the moment, I'm not. I could just up the EL of every fight, and may indeed be forced to do so, but I would rather not, as it smacks of punishing their good play. I'd rather fix my own failings.