An Old Classic - Haste, And How To Handle It

[Goldmoon]

You'd be wrong about that.

Haste: "All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement."

Fly: "The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet..."

Fly grants a speed and thus a mode of movement. Haste therefore affects it.

One could almost....I say again almost argue that it should therefore double the five foot step since its technically a land movement.

 

[Infiniti2000]

One could almost....I say again almost argue that it should therefore double the five foot step since its technically a land movement.

Not even close, actually.

You have a land speed of some value. It doesn't matter how fast as long as it's greater than 5ft. Gaining that speed + 30 (max double), does not alter the 5ft-step "no action" that you're allowed to take. Haste does not provide a new type of "no action" called 10ft-step, therefore there is none.

 

[Goldmoon]

Not even close, actually.

You have a land speed of some value. It doesn't matter how fast as long as it's greater than 5ft. Gaining that speed + 30 (max double), does not alter the 5ft-step "no action" that you're allowed to take. Haste does not provide a new type of "no action" called 10ft-step, therefore there is none.

So the only thing that ever alters the 5 foot step is a Sparing Dummy of the Master? Sounds like monks have all the good toys.

 

[irdeggman]

One could almost....I say again almost argue that it should therefore double the five foot step since its technically a land movement.

Infi is correct. A 5 ft step is not movement nor is it a mode.

Techically a character with a +1 BAB could not draw his weapon as a free action (not withstanding the Quck Draw feat) while taking a 5 ft step since it is not "movement". The text does not state a move action it states when combined with a regular move - not move action.

 

[werk]

I'd just play up the limitations of haste as much as possible.

Close range, so the party has to 'group for buffs' before combat starts. That puts them in fireball configuration and restricts what anyone does until the sorc's turn comes up. It also telegraphs to the opponents that a group buff is going to go off, so they can ready a dispel, slow, or counter or ready to disrupt the casting.

They only get an extra attack on a full attack, so space out the combatants so they can't get a full attack. Tumbling or spring attacking opponents are in order, as are reach weapons or trippers. Don't be afraid to use some disarm or sunder monkeys.

Short duration, try to stretch out combat.

Main thing is, if the party has a 6th level sorc, that's some magical firepower (even if it's not literally fire-power) regular peon warriors can't really compete. Now the peons need magic to level the playing field and they need to be tougher and be played smarter...which stands to reason, they are supposed to be harder, right? I wouldn't say that you need to raise the EL (much) but rather play with the encounter composition so the bad guys are more sustainable.

Compare 2 6th level fighters attacking 2 hill giants to a 6th level fighter and a 6th level sorcerer fighting those same 2 hill giants. In the first scenario it is a slug fest, who can last the longest, hit the most often, do the most damage... In the second, the sorc should be able to completely disable the hill giants while the fighter cuts them down. These are the same EL but obviously offer different challenge levels because of the relative groups' composition.

Don't nerf anything, don't houserule anything. If you can't figure it out after playing around with it for a while, start bumping up the EL until you kill the sorc

 

[KarinsDad]

1) Don't forget to have your opponents with reach weapons take a 5 foot step back whenever they are fighting from 10 feet away. This forces the PC Fighters to move up 10 feet to counterattack and then the PC Fighters do not get their full round attack. Another tactic in this area is to figt with Combat Expertise with a reach weapon and then move back 15 feet when the PC Fighters are fighting from 5 feet away. The PC gets the Attack of Opportunity, but the NPC has +x to AC and it prevents a full round attack the following round. He can also fight defensively (+2 more AC) against a different opponent within range (he cannot attack the Fighter 5 foot away unless he has a spiked chain, or only backs away a 5 foot step which defeats the purpose of this tactic).

2) Keep track of where downed opponents fall. Those squares can be considered difficult terrain which means double movement through them and no 5 foot step into them.

3) Slightly increase the difficulty of encounters. There is no shame in doing this. I dream of having good tactical players in my group that I could send big challenges at, and at the moment, there are only three out of six. The other three trip over their own pencils and dice and often try to kill their own characters in combat. You are lucky.

 

[airwalkrr]

I'm old school, and many won't like my approach, but in my games, haste ages you a year and you must make a con check DC (5) or die, similar to the system shock of old. This cuts down the use of it quite a bit. I use system shock for a few other spells as well, it keeps polymorph in check, too.

This rule favors the party o' dwarves. Long-lived and with Con bonuses they will use the spell just like they used to.

 

[IceFractal]

Wait, wouldn't that houserule mean that Dragons always take Haste as early as possible and cast it as often as they can? Instant Great-Wyrm!

 

[Infiniti2000]

Wait, wouldn't that houserule mean that Dragons always take Haste as early as possible and cast it as often as they can? Instant Great-Wyrm!

Exactly. Doesn't it also heavily favor elves? Yes, that's why it was a terrible rule to begin with.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

Tactics that can help:

Layout control. Where is cover? Where is concealment? How about corners? Do the fighters have a bottleneck to go through?

Readied actions. You gotta pass by a certain point, the enemy just waits to launch the attack.

Combat reflexes and reach. All that running around will trigger some sort of AoO. Use them. Lots.

Grappling. They can't run around or full attack in the jaws of a critter.

Your own Haste. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Disarm, Trip, Bull Rush. A charging ogre can bounce the rogue back, and smash him when he comes running back. Or is that a cliff you just got bounced over?

Hope this helps!