Antimagic and Orbs

[Abraxas]

If the Orb is non-magical, how does it auto-target its target without using magic? There is no ranged touch attack.

Are you talking about the Orb of Spells here? If so, they all require a ranged touch attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Are you talking about the Orb of Spells here? If so, they all require a ranged touch attack.

Oh, good. I'm away from my Complete Arcane, and all I had was the excerpt from the Wizards site:

4th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells

CONJ
Blast of Flame: 60-ft. cone of fire (1d6/level damage).
Orb of Acid: Ranged touch, 1d6/level acid damage and target might be sickened.
Orb of Cold: Ranged touch, 1d6/level cold damage and target might be blinded.
Orb of Electricity: Ranged touch, 1d6/level electricity damage and target might be entangled.
Orb of Fire: Ranged touch, 1d6/level fire damage and target might be dazed.
...

I wondered if maybe I was misremembering...!

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Face it. The Orbs are screwy. The designers broke the rules when they created them...

Do you mean because they're Creation spells that create something with no hit points specified?

Like Acid Arrow, Acid Fog, Acid Splash, Black Tentacles, Create Water, Fire Seeds, Fog Cloud, Gate, Glitterdust, Grease, Incendiary Cloud, Mage Armor, Mage's Faithful Hound...?

-Hyp.

 

[DreamChaser]

The simplest version would be to say that the orb has two states: the incompletely-conjured orb that flies through the air, and the completely conjured orb that exists when the orb impacts the target. The orb spell reacts to complete the conjuration when the orb impacts against something, just like the fireball spell reacts to cause a detonation when the bead it launches impacts against something.

I confidently put forth that this utterly contradicts the very concept of "simple" it applies within Occam's Razor. It requires adding content and functionality to the spells that is simply not supported or implied.

Simple is, in this case, the realization that either 1) the definition of Conjuration (Creation) spells is flawed and does not apply or 2) the orb spells do not fit within that definition.

As the other spells within the school seem to create a specific thing with definable physical characteristics as we know the concept--with the possible exception of Gate, Mage Armor, and Faithful Hound--and the orb spells do not--a sonic orb, orb of cold, or orb of force are not definable physical objects--the SIMPLEST explanation is that the orb spells fail to meet the basic critereon of a Conjuration (Creation) spell. Occam's Razon seems to indicate then that they do not properly belong to that school.

Now, let's consider this principle; consider the definition of Evocation from the SRD

Evocation
Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage.

The key passage here is "create something out of nothing." In essence, Conjuration (Creation) and Evocation spells appear to do the same thing. BUT evocation has no limitation that the thing created be an object or creature. Thus, again with Occam's Razor, given the choice between Conjuration (Creation) and Evocation when choosing the school for a spell that creates a thing that is not an object or creature from nothing, one must choose Evocation.

What does all this mean? That the orb spells are internally inconsistent with the rest of the magic system; they appear to have been specifically created to circumvent some aspect of the magic system (as postulated by someone above, to get around the SR problem). Regardless, at the time that AMF was created, the Orb spells were no where on the horizon but other Conjuration (Creation) spells that do fit the critereon of the sub school did (create water for example); thus the clarification that instant Creation spells are not affected by AMF if the thing created is brought into the field.

There is something that muddies the water even further; with only a couple of exceptions (the orb spells, acid splash, acid arrow) creation spells have a point of origin and are affected by physical forces normally. You throw fire seeds, wind disperces the fog spells, created water flows or can be kept in a bowl. Even Ice Knife (from Spell Compendium), creates a knife which must then be thrown. The exceptions provide something that no other spell of the sub school provides: motive force.

This creates a situation where all aspects of these direct damage conjurations becomes suspect. Their effects fit Evocation more than Conjuration (especially when one considers that right or wrong acid is a form of ENERGY in D&D); as Conjurations create objects or creatures, acid, fire, sound, cold (not ice), electricity, and force do not apply. Second, with the exception of those spells which violate the first maxim, no Creation spells provide motive force to the effect (caveat: cloudkill emanates from the caster in a manner unlike any other spell and may require further study along these lines, mage armor creates force which implies that it, like Shield, should be abjuration). The bead from a fireball spell has motive force in the same way that the orbs and arrows of the above spells do. For an Evocation spell to create motive force (simply another type of energy) makes sense; not so for Conjuration spells.

In summation, the orb spells (and other direct damage conjuration spell) are highly suspect as Conjurations at all. Their effects and behavior are far more in line with Evocation. An excellent example of directed damage from a true Conjuration (Creation) spell would be the above mentioned Ice Knife. The spell description indicates how the knife is created and what happens upon impact. Now here is the odd thing: The physical effect (piercing damage) is obvious and would apply within an AMF. The secondary magical effect (the cold damage) is affected by SR (defying the rule that started this thread) and thus would also be affected by an AMF. Unfortunately, the spell does not clearly state what aspects of the spell effect are affected by SR; the spell is not perfect, it simply demonstrates what a Conjuration (Creation) damage spell should be.

Thanks you if you actually read all this.

DC

 

[KarinsDad]

Are you talking about the Orb of Spells here? If so, they all require a ranged touch attack.

That's what happens when I post without my books in front of me.

But, the problem still exists. The Lesser Orbs have range touch attack, no saving throw and no SR. So, the chances of doing full damage with them are pretty high.

The normal Orbs also have no saving throw or SR for the damage. They do have a saving throw for the additional effect, but not for the damage.

There are only a few defenses against the damage of these spells: a miss chance, an extremely high touch AC, and Resistance/Immunity from that energy type (which for Sonic is pretty rare) are the main ones. That means that these spells are nearly auto-hit (at some point, except for a one) and auto-damage for many combatant type opponents.

Not only that, but since they are a ranged touch attack that does damage, they can do double damage on a successful critical. And nothing stops them from being Empowered, etc. So, theoretically, an Empowered normal Orb has a fairly high chance of hitting and could potentially do a 27D6 critical at 9th level with virtually no defenses. Sure, the chances of doing a critical are low, but this is a pretty high spike of potential damage.

It's one thing to be killed. It's another to be killed from full hit points at 9th level by taking 94 (average on a successful Empowered critical) points of damage without getting a saving throw. You're dead. Roll up a new character. No save.

The mechanics of the Orb spells are extremely suspect.

Even Scorching Ray (one of the most easy to abuse core damage spells) requires a successful to hit per ray. In order to do 3x damage (like the Empowered Orb spells can do with a single critical roll), an Empowered Scorching Ray (at two levels lower) would require 2 successful critical rolls at 7th level or 3 successful critical rolls at 11th level. Plus, Scorching Ray has SR.

The Orb spells are not balanced.


The worse thing about the Orb spells is that they do Evocation damage as Conjuration spells better (except possibly for range) than most if not all of the single target Evocation spells. For example, Lesser Orb of Electricity is basically balanced with Shocking Grasp at levels one to six (slightly less damage and less to hit, but can be fired at range), but from 7th level and greater it is a better spell (more damage and range versus +3 to hit).


If one allows the Orb spells to go through an AMF, that just makes them slightly more potent. The best way to adjudicate them with respect to AMF is to read AMF "The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities."

Are the Orb spells spells? Yes. Then they are stopped. The Conjuration rules do not state that from the point in time that they are cast until the point in time that they hit their target, that they become non-spells or non-magical. That is an inference that people are making. But, they should make the exact opposite inference based on other spells. Other instantaneous spells (like Fireball) travel from the caster to the target while they are still magical, but they still cannot be dispelled because they are instantaneous.

 

[DreamChaser]

I don’t know why everyone is so up and arms about this spell. All it takes is an imagination. It really is a cool spell. so whats your real beef? That it takes away from evocation? Or that dms have less power with antimagic fields? If that’s the case, shouldn’t that be the argument and your real reason for saying you don’t like it, rather then saying its hooky or wonky, or stupid or retarded, or dumb.

Honestly, it is because they tacked Conjuration on as the school in an attempt to create a direct-damage SR-passing spell without even the briefest nod to the definition of Conjuration that they created themselves. They least they could have done was created a new sub school Conjuration (Energy) or some such so as to create a system by which players and DMs alike would know how to use these spells as a point of reference for creating new spells.

I think it would be like me starting to call you Mieliki's Buddy instead of Moon-Lancer despite the 130-odd previous posts stating otherwise. All evidence that D&D provides says that the effect created by the orb spells 1) is evocation and 2) should be affected by SR. They provide no basis to reason the change within the RAW. Thus the change should not have been made.

I don't ultimately have a problem with it as I simply forbid the spells. I have enough imagination to know when a spell does not fit into my game and when one does. These spells are poorly planned and executed IMO. YMMV.

DC

 

[Hypersmurf]

As the other spells within the school seem to create a specific thing with definable physical characteristics as we know the concept--with the possible exception of Gate, Mage Armor, and Faithful Hound...

Phase Door? Unseen Servant? Sepia Snake Sigil?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Are the Orb spells spells? Yes. Then they are stopped.

Absolutely. If the spells occur within the field.

But the effects of those spells?

If I Create Water outside the field (so the spell is not stopped), and then throw that water into the field, does the field do anything to the water? No; the water is the effect of an instantaneous Creation spell.

If I create an Orb of Acid outside the field (so the spell is not stopped), and that orb travels into the field, does the field do anything to the orb? No; the orb is the effect of an instantaneous Creation spell.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Honestly, it is because they tacked Conjuration on as the school in an attempt to create a direct-damage SR-passing spell without even the briefest nod to the definition of Conjuration that they created themselves.

How is Orb of Acid from Complete Arcane different in concept to Acid Splash from the PHB?

They took a Conjuration (Creation) spell that exists in the core rules, and extrapolated a higher-level version with variations. The concept is present in the core rules.

I don't ultimately have a problem with it as I simply forbid the spells.

As is your right as a DM... but absent such forbiddance, the spells are instantaneous creations.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Do you mean because they're Creation spells that create something with no hit points specified?

Like Acid Arrow, Acid Fog, Acid Splash, Black Tentacles, Create Water, Fire Seeds, Fog Cloud, Gate, Glitterdust, Grease, Incendiary Cloud, Mage Armor, Mage's Faithful Hound...?

No, because they create permanent effects (that are non-magical) as opposed to permanent objects or creatures.

Jed: "Yup, that little pul of far has always bin thar. Don't know how it dun it, the midwife say it don't deetect as majic. But, we use it to lite torches and such. Darndest thang ya ever see."