Any DM's not allowing Spiked Chains?

[Elethiomel]

...ah, the tiny mossy twig........now there was a great weapon....

You can cast Spikes and Brambles on it, so yeah.

 

[Deset Gled]

The fantasy weapon could be a tiny mossy twig

Goldarnit, Nail! Now I'm having EverQuest flashbacks again.

 

[Celebrim]

First, your logic here is faulty....Second, I see a number of rants about why you don't like the concept of the spiked chain. I see no analysis that would lead me to believe it's overpowered in any way.

I believe you are misreading me. I said up front that my problems with weapon were conceptual rather than power related necessarily.

I can appreciate a "real-world" analysis of a spiked chain. Although analysis either by historical comparisons or through fun movie special-effects is applicable to gaming.

Absolutely. If you want to go with a cinematic style and you don't think there is a balance issue, then you can ignore at least half of that list and probably all of it, but particularly the fumble chance, the initiative penalty, and the no combat expertise restriction. Clearly though, when I said I was worried about versimilitude, I'm going for something a little grittier than that.

This would seem to me to be over-compensating, as opposed to balancing it.

I never said I was trying to balance it. I was trying to simulate it. Clearly I'm of the opinion that its an inherently clumsy and in some ways inferior weapon. So why would I try to balance it with weapons with more proven utility?

Do you do this sort of thing with all weapons in your games, or just this one?

Only the ones that I find silly. I would normally not try to over simulate things in the interest of fast play, but if the weapon is silly then I think the rules should reflect its clumsiness when its employed in ways that are just physically impossible for the weapon.

 

[Elemental]

That is a very neat idea, actually... although in untrained hands the staff is just a big club, both the east and west have staff fighting traditions that turn it into a very nasty weapon, with reach, able to use it close up and with better reach than a sword, great for tripping... I could easily see an 'exotic weapon - staff' with the spiked chain statistics (and just bludgeoning damage, of course).

Cheers

Indeed, I'd like to see some Spycraft-style feats that grant special manouveres with certain weapons. It wouldn't be too different from the tactical feats, and would make using a weapon more of a choice than +1 average damage vs +1 crit range.

 

[Celebrim]

I kinda agree with you, the spiked ball on a chain was as much used in real life as double swords, double axes, and the rest of that group.

The double axe is just silly, and is an outright banned weapon. It defeats the whole purpose of an axe to remove your leverage like that.

But the double ended sword in a slightly different form than usually presented could at least exist, in the form of a double glaive or similar weapon (more handle and less blade). This weapon could be used in the same general fashion as a quarterstaff. I'd allow it, basically as a staff doing piercing/slashing damage (and consequent superior criticals), but without some of the feats I'd allow for a quarterstaff because its still a bit clumsy.

I believe I've seen a number of chinese polearms with a similar concept in thier construction, but I can't find a link to one right now.

The rest of the standard double weapons are just gone. In thier place, I'd encourage staves, with the chinese three section staff being a suitable variant staff (I'd not see the need for extra rules, since the techniques vary only slightly), and the kusari-gama (light flail on one side and sickle on the other) which has alot of historical precedence. But I don't think I'd let any such weapon easily threaten both near and far. Instead, they'd work something like reverse pole arms, with a near threat range and the option to take a feat that allowed far attacks as opposed to a far threat range and the option to take a feat that allows near attacks.

Spiked armor is just nutty.

 

[Darklone]

I did create a spiked chain NPC once... see story in my sig. It explains why none of the players afterwards showed interest in the weapon.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Indeed, I'd like to see some Spycraft-style feats that grant special manouveres with certain weapons. It wouldn't be too different from the tactical feats, and would make using a weapon more of a choice than +1 average damage vs +1 crit range.

Master of Arms by second world publications is probably the book for you then - it has some excellent ideas for flavourful feats for particular weapons ... lots and lots of them. It also includes feats for Rod of Lordly Might based, Blinking based and Immovable Rod based fighting too!

See more details and positive reviews here http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=product&productid=118229

 

[Legildur]

(my emphasis)

I said up front that my problems with weapon were conceptual rather than power related necessarily.

What? Unlike spellcasting, fantastic creatures of mythology, and feats of super-human athleticism?

 

[Celebrim]

(my emphasis) What? Unlike spellcasting, fantastic creatures of mythology, and feats of super-human athleticism?

Well, on an individual basis, I might have problems with each of those. The spell I might deem inappropriate for the game I wish to run, the creature to silly and thus ignore it or rule it doesn't exist, or that the rules for various atheletic feats are not particularly well thought out.

And that's what this comes down to, for me: personal choice regarding how I want my world to look and feel. I'm directing. You'll note for example, the close attention I pay to the terrain when talking about a spiked chain. If during the fight you encounter difficult terrain and balance checks on a fairly regular basis, then it will feel like you are in a real 3d world and not merely moving figures around on a peice of gridded paper. I want to put you in the wood, and not on a piece of paper representing 'woods'. If your character is standing shoulder to shoulder with your comrades and whirling a spiked chain without you thinking, 'How am I managing to do this without busting them upside the head, or slicing them open', then you aren't picturing what your character is doing in you head to my satisfaction. Your imagination is stuck in I'm observing a game mode and not first person cinema with 'shaky cam' mode, which is more what I want to convey.

So if you can (or I can) picture the guy casting a fireball, and picture the fireball expoding, then you've achieved the versimlitude I need. But if I can't picture it - frame by frame if need be - or if I think the picture looks silly, then my assumption is that it will look silly when you picture it to. All the rules to me should be designed to help achieve that experience, because its the experience I enjoyed as a player and its the sort of craft I enjoy creating as a DM. If you like a different sort of art, well that's your right to do so (and I may even agree you have legitimate reasons for it), but the converse of that is my right to defend my sort of art as being valuable or even preferable.

So, to be brief I've no problem with versimiltude of a wizard casting a fireball because that's whats supposed to happen. I do have a problem with versimilitude of a chain that exists nowhere in space except when its striking an opponent, because that particular chain is not supposed to just disappear and become ghost like except when its striking the opponent.

 

[Celebrim]

Master of Arms by second world publications is probably the book for you then - it has some excellent ideas for flavourful feats for particular weapons ... lots and lots of them. It also includes feats for Rod of Lordly Might based, Blinking based and Immovable Rod based fighting too!

See more details and positive reviews here http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=product&productid=118229

Interesting link. I ignored that product out of hand because it has prestige classes in it, which I deplore. But I love at least the concept of Tactical feats (although few if any have been well done), and if thier is some crunch in the book I could rearrange into tactical feats for the end of weapon specific feat chains it might make it worth looking into.