Anybody else getting sick of the pervasive-magic crutch in the game?

[Ace]

Holy pot-kettle Batman! I agree the example sounds like it could be a power-tripping DM. However, I'd have to say this is a little ironic, as the response sounds like a power-tripping player. 'If you don't DM the way I like, level me up how I want and give me X-gp value of items, I'll take my toys and go home.'

I don't disagree. However the players have more choice than the DM most of the time. Now When I am looking to play D&D I ask politely up front what the expected level up rate and magic item density is. IMO in D&D this is the key question. The rest not so much

To each their own; if you and your group like a particular magic or level progression that is fine, but dictating to the DM how to DM is as bad as the DM dictating to the players how to play. Players and DM's both need to find groups that fit them (if the intent is enjoyment), that is pretty true in all games, from Chess to Risk to D&D.

It would be better to say -- this is upfront what i expect and if you don't want to meert it I don't want to play. Its wrong to do it mid game

Maybe some gamers (or even many) need to have a certain amount or value of magic items, however most people I've ever played with are far more interested in being part of a heroic and engaging story where they are the main actors, with magic items coming in a far second or third or fourth to interesting characters, plots, and adventures. And that is as true now as it was when I was playing and DM'ing (badly) in 1983.

Almost every fantasy game I have played in seems like every other. YM Will V but this has been my experience -

every RPG session has ben like every other. I was gaming a long time ago myself and speaking frankly I have NEVER been in an engaging story unless I ran it -- I have some good bits and a few exciting herioics (once in a Rolemaster game) these things do exist but most of the gaming I have played in has been tedious plodding dull, repetitious and uninspired -- keep in mind I have played under at least a dozen GM's of differing skill levels so i am nota newbie

I solved the problem by essentially never playing and only GMing

My players like my games, I like GMing everyone is happy

 

[Raven Crowking]

Not every DM has a selection of players to choose from -- often its "take what players you can get and be glad of it" and "be glad anyone showed up" not "do it my way" -- a DM is always welcome to turn down players at anytime but there is a cost

I've never actually experienced a situation where there were more potential good DMs than potential good players.....or anything even close. I have never known a good DM who had to worry about losing players. I have never known a good player to drop a game if the DM was good because he wasn't levelling fast enough.

 

[Ace]

I've never actually experienced a situation where there were more potential good DMs than potential good players.....or anything even close. I have never known a good DM who had to worry about losing players. I have never known a good player to drop a game if the DM was good because he wasn't levelling fast enough.

I am in SO Cal Usa not Canada maybe thats a difference.

we get a lot of "I can do better than that" around here. In other states -- not so much. The players just excuse themselves and leave for another game. I think its the electronic gaming era myself. I was pretty much not gaming with people till 7years ago, Buy, sure. Play -- No so if gaming was awesome from 1993 to 1999 I didn't know about it

I have gamed in 3 states at different times and to be honest I haven't played a long term game with a decent DM/GM at any time EVER in more than mumble years of gaming. One local GM is said to be decent -- the players completed and enjoyed a long term game with him (some 9 months IIRC) but he has many many games tank

I consider myself a decent player -- show up on time (or call) , play my character, aren't disruptive, try to get decent concepts that fit. I can't remember how often I have not been able to do anything fun. PLOD PLOD PLOD at inept level 1

after this and having decided to give gaming one last try I have decided on this manifesto

FUN NOW ---

 

[Raven Crowking]

I am in SO Cal Usa not Canada maybe thats a difference.

I used to live in Southern California (Venice Beach). Very nice place when I was there.

I've also lived, and run games, in Wisconsin, Indiana, Lousiana, and Virginia.

Probably, I've just gotten luckier than some.

I wish you good luck in the future.....Who knows what games will come? In any event, I am a big advocate of "If you're not having fun, walk." There's too much good stuff to be doing to waste your times playing games you're not enjoying.....whether you're a DM, a player, or sitting at a Scrabble board.

RC

 

[DarkKestral]

I voted for the D&D magic level as being too high, because at level 5 plus, the characters start beginning to light up like christmas trees, as they say. I don't mind the occasional +5 holy avenger laying around, because I can imagine some NPCs having gotten to the point that they would have items of that power made for them for some purpose. It's when everyone has a +W sword, cloak of resistance +A, stat boost item of +Y to Z, umpteen magical potions for healing, random other stuff, scrolls, wands, staves, various other items... it gets to be too much. I like the idea of having 1 or two big magical items per character, or even fewer. I don't mind spellcasters casting, and having some potions, as long as the potions feel suitably arcane. I don't even mind scrolls, as long as they are suitably rare. I just don't like a lot of permanent, magical items. A +1 sword isn't interesting, and is endemic of the magic item problem. A +1 flaming sword is a little more so, and somewhat interesting, if seen only occasionally. A +1 flaming sword which allows the user to enlarge themselves for 5 minutes a day and take on the form of an efreeti of that size (obviously, with the exception of the Wish ability they have) for that length of time is a lot more so, especially if it has a downside that each usage makes the user's body scarred as if it were burned to the bone in a new spot afterward.

 

[Psion]

Quote:
Your group might tolerate that sort of thing but if you tried that with the guys I play with you would need to get a new group.

If the players are that hung up on their gear, I'm not sure I'd miss 'em.

Course the reason that I would do what I spoke of is to prevent this sort of mentality from developing in the first place. It's only poor DMing that never suffers the PCs to undergo any adversity that causes this mentality to become entrenched. Get players used to the transience of wealth early, and you'll never have to deal with players who identify more with their sword than their character.

 

[Gothmog]

Your group might tolerate that sort of thing but if you tried that with the guys I play with you would need to get a new group. We would all leave en mass. I have seen it happen 5 or mroe times with different

Anway as a point of modern gaming the DM is not in charge of the games folks the players are --- You have some say in what goes on but if the DM doesn't give the players what they want they'll soon start making excuses and the next time you see them they'll be playing WOW or EQ2 instead.

Its not 1983 anymore people have lots more choices and unsatisfied players or players with a power tripping GM (which is what this will be recieved as) will just go do something else. I am not a hostage to your "story" or "flavor" I simply don't care -- I'll play -- I'll RP and I'll try to increase everyones fun but I expect
that I play D&D to have items within 20% of the suggested amount at all times or so other rules (like my own) that compensate for the D&D's screwed up armor class rules and what all. if you aren't interested -- have a good game without me.

Also I expect to level up roughly at the suggested rate or faster. If I wanted gritty I'd play GURPS

The rules as written mandate a reliance on items -- I refuse to do the math again and show the differences but flatly without magic items D&D is less for fun many maybe most gamers

if you don't like this fact and want a low magic item game either make a patch (as I did) or play something else

D&D is for playing D&D -- learn it -- love it.

I've run into player entitlement like this several times, mostly since 3E came out. I have to say, the loot by level tables are the biggest disservice ever done to D&D, and I'm not crazy about the super-fast level-ups in the game. Like it or not, the core rules HAVE changed drastically from 1E and 2E, and mostly for the worse IMO. Players are encouraged by the rules to obsess on their stats, "builds", and try to squeeze every bit of optimization out of the game. While some folks did this in earlier editions, it sure seems like its assumed to be par for the course now.

I had one guy about 2 years ago get his +2 holy thundering greatsword sundered by a fire giant in a game I played in, and he got so upset he said the DM had "ruined" his character build, and he pitched a very immature hissy fit about it. He tried three times that night to suicide his character, and when that didn't work he tried to cause a TPK for the group. We booted him out under no uncertain terms, and told him not to return until he grew up (which he never did). Items have become way too important in the current version of D&D, and yes I'll say it- lead to a lot of munchkin behavior from some players. I'm not saying all people who enjoy the "build" aspects of the game and high magic are like this, but there is a strong trend towards that. Its not badwrongfun, but unless everybody in the group is on the same page, it is extremely disruptive behavior.

 

[Felix]

Heh, to force people to make up their minds that's why

They helped me make up my mind to not vote. And it's not like someone is holding your arm behind your back forcing you to have magic in the game; you can change things like that, you know...

Here's my beef with the ever pervasive magic in the game. There's too dang much of it.

How long have you been playing in the Forgotten Realms?

 

[Infiniti2000]

I refuse to vote on the grounds that the choices are silly.

QFT! It's a troll poll!

Actually, though, they're not radio buttons, so you can vote all three.

 

[Hussar]

Frankly, I don't see why low-level scrolls, potions, weapons and armor should inspire awe and wonder. If my wizard buddy regularly fires off magic missiles at our enemies, should I feel amazed that he can produce the same effect from a scroll? If my cleric companion has healed my wounds time and again, should I be in awe of a potion that can do the same? If the only difference between a +1 longsword and my masterwork longsword is that it gets through DR/magic and deals an extra point of damage, how much wonder am I supposed to feel, especially since my spellcasting friends can get me the same benefits with a simple spell?

I think the dissonance comes when DMs want even a potion of cure light wounds to be treated as a rare and wondrous artefact, but a 1st-level cleric to be treated as "nothing special" to prevent the PC from having disproportionate influence over the NPCs in the campaign. Either magic and spellcasters are common, and low-level magic is treated as a tool, or magic and spellcasters are rare, and even low-level magic items and spellcasters are treated with respect and awe. Even the somewhat contrived (at least to me) scenario in which spellcasters are common, but magic items are rare begs the question of why any spellcaster that actually had the ability create magic items would bother to create something that just heals 1d8+1 points of damage.

Asking me to get excited about something simply because it's got a "magic item" tag is like asking me to get excited about something simply because it's got a designer label. A +1 longsword doesn't impress me. A +1 holy longsword will interest me. A +5 holy, axiomatic, evil outsider bane cold iron longsword will certainly get my attention.

QFT.