Anybody else getting sick of the pervasive-magic crutch in the game?

[Gooba42]

If it's too much, pare it down.
If it's not enough, punch it up.

If you're a player and don't like the game, play something else.
If you're a DM and don't like the game, change it.

This "I only play RAW/PHB/DMG because that's the right way" attitude is abhorrent. There's no reason to be polarized on any aspect of the game because it is, ultimately, what you make it.

Any DM who doesn't houserule to make the game what they want it to be is simply lazy. You put in the time, you craft your story/world/adventure/campaign to suit you and your players. If you find your lvl 15 PCs fight like lvl 10s because of limited access to items then you can do any of a number of things to fix it. Give them better items. Give them better spells. Feed them level 10 encounters, even if you have to craft your own opponents to make it happen. This argument is entirely about dissatisfaction at the game system not forcing everyone to play one particular way.

Even if you would have to craft an entirely new game system from the ground up to enjoy a night at the table, you are your only obstacle to doing so.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Even if you would have to craft an entirely new game system from the ground up to enjoy a night at the table, you are your only obstacle to doing so.

Well said. That being said, I voted that there is indeed too much magic in d&d. Not because it replaces thinking but because of the fact that magic items are an ESSENTIAL part of the game. Because of d&d's item dependancy, characters absolutely have to have a bajillion gp worth of items in order to survive a standard campaign. It also bugs me that NPCs just plain suck as an indirect result of this magic item dependancy.

My solution has in fact been to craft an entirely new game, that while drawn from d&d, does not require magic items at all while at the same time allowing for the option of a monty haul campaign should this be to the DM's liking.

 

[Piratecat]

I think you defined the problem incorrectly. Magic doesn't stop my players from thinking critically and from problem solving. However, they often problem solve using magic, and that's fun for us. A good example is divination spells. a lot of people bemoan the fact that divinations make simple mysteries too easy. But create a mystery that has to be solved with clues from a divination, and which still requires critical thought once those clues are gathered, and you've got no 'crutch' whatsoever.

An example: in my game, an anonymous rival to the PCs sent them a taunting letter. The PCs used divination to find the actual name of the person who wrote it, then crafted a popular bardic song completely humiliating the guy. The song became popular in taverns for hundreds of miles, and they congratulated themselves for some good revenge. So when the poor embarrassed scribe who actually wrote the letter for someone else showed up to complain, they realized that in order for a divination to work they had to ask the right question. . .

There are lots of similar examples out there. Magic by definition breaks the "normal" rules of a universe, sometimes providing shortcuts or circumventing traditional challenges. It gives additional tools to the PCs. the fun is in crafting challenges that require those PCs to use their new magic tools efficiently, too.

 

[Phlebas]

I run a low magic campaign (easy enough to do - require a feat for magic use, and apply a x10 multiplier for the cost of permanent magic items (scrolls and potions are cheaper)). It does mean a bit more balancing on the ref's part, especially as the players are hitting 10th level and the CR's need more adjusting now

I play in more standard campaigns and already at ~5th level we're spending more evenings discussing what to buy / make than what to do.

Partly this is because the ease of making magic items is one of the 'new' things in 3/3,5 but also because there is an expectation that we need stuff in these campaigns. (the fact we have an artificer in one campaign and a conjurer with craft wondrous item in the other may also be a factor)

Which is best? - i know what i prefer but the other players seem happy enough playing in either campaign so perhaps the correct answer is yes & no - it all depends on the players and the DM and the game.......

 

[was]

yes

 

[Will]

I refuse to vote on the grounds that the choices are silly.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

It depends what you mean...

In terms of number of spells available, I found it getting too much to keep track of, given the large number of splatbooks. Although this is part of a larger 'option overload' of feats, items, etc from all those books.

My answer was to cut right down on the number of books allowed for a campaign. The final answer I tended towards is PhB + 1 splatbook per player. A choice few feats, spells and items from various splatbooks tend to get moved into the PhB category.


In terms of magic flying around. I like it. One of the reasons I choose to play DnD instead of less fantastical games... although I like to get a good mix of different styles myself.


/rambling ahead:

Starting with the assumption that a lot of magic is basically ways of adding pluses to various character attributes*:

One idea I've been bouncing around for a lower magic feel is to move a bunch of items from magic over to higher levels of mastercrafting...

For example - +1 > +3 weapons and armour are just really well made. Keep prices the same. Gives craft skills much more meaning?

To get better gear than this, you need to put magical enchantments on top of a +3 bonus item.

You'd still need magical items to achieve more flashy effects, but there'd be far fewer per character.

With a little stretch, I feel it would be possible to treat a lot of the 'everybody has one magic items' into mundane gear. For example - resistance and deflection effects. Highly specialised tailoring techniques? A personalised diet & exercise plan that costs a whole bunch to get taught?

The main differences I can see are that certain anti magic effects are not so scary any more. And monster DR's would need some tweaking. Times for crafting would need a big overhaul. Nothing too major though?

* - different solution needed if the problem is actually having all these pluses in the first place, no matter where they come from... IMO that's a DnD mechanics problem rather than magic, YMMV.

 

[Milo HoBo]

Magic items are the real problem to me. They are usually nothing more than a crutch. Magic itmes end up being more important than the characters that use them. So, while I don't advocate low magic settings (I like spellcasting too much to do that), I do advocate finding a way to limit the usefulness of magic items.

To tell the truth, I almost only play magic-users. The idea of eliminating magic altogether is unattractive to me. However, I've heard that Iron Heros has done away with magic in a balanced way. I like magic too much to have checked it out.

 

[Quartz]

Magic itmes end up being more important than the characters that use them.

This was explicitly stated a number of times in one of the Disjunction threads: people said that they'd rather their character died - to be resurrected later - than lose their items.

 

[Psion]

This was explicitly stated a number of times in one of the Disjunction threads: people said that they'd rather their character died - to be resurrected later - than lose their items.

The proper response, then, is to just say "no" to these people.

Then house rule Mordenkainen's Disjunction to a 6th level spell and have NPCs use it until they get the message.