Anyone else tired of the miserly begrudging Rogue design of 5E?

[TwoSix]

That's about all I agree with, though. The rogue is designed to encourage creative play*, both in and out of combat; that's why you get Cunning Action, Expertise, et cetera. It works, too. I've played a high-level rogue, and while I did not get the steady high DPR of a fighter, I got more than my share of awesome moments due to absurdly high skill bonuses and Reliable Talent enabling me to use them without fear. Fighters can win fights fairly. Rogues can't... but boy, can they ever cheat.

Ehhh....spells encourage creative, assertive play because you know how they work. Skills encourage "I have a +10 Acrobatics check, can I please try to climb this?" asking for permission play, which some people find creative and I find tedious. I prefer rules that allow me to state what's happening, not ask if it's allowed.

Now, Cunning Action is great, no question there.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Why do people treat sneak attack as something dangerously close to unbalanced?

Because it's at-will, and in the 6-8 encounter day it adds up to a satifylingly large number and good DPR.

That it has 0 versatility or that 5es fast-combat design limits the number of rounds a combat will last or that the 6-8 encounter day is un-enforced or that peak damage is much more spotlight-grabbing than grinding DPR or that the Rogue's relative squishiness means it's likely to sit out some rounds making death saves - all are ignored in those calculations.

 

[CapnZapp]

The issue isn't so much rogues, the issue is with other martials getting Extra Attack, and then the feats that synergize well with it.

Now, granted, it's easier to much easier to fix just rogues than to fix every other martial class, but the doesn't change the fact that the rogue design is great.

The rogue design is not great - it's miserly and byzantine. If you try to squeeze some DPR out of the class, anyway.

I agree the rogue probably doesn't need help in games with all options turned off, and I said as much above.

So, yes, the problem is that everybody else gets all the goodies. But removing those goodies is certainly not the fun way of solving the issue.

The fun way of solving the issue is making sure the rogue keeps up.

 

[CapnZapp]

Didn't you already make a thread asking about ways to get more Sneak Attacks for your rogue player? What happened? I could have sworn there were like over a dozen different ideas thrown about to increase Rogue damage. Did nothing anyone suggest actually make your rogue player happy?

Or do you just want everyone who gave their suggestions in the other thread to retype them here so you won't have to read the other long thread over again?

Why would I want to bury my suggestions in a huge thread where everybody just throw pie at each other. Here I posted them in my second post - it's just that a couple of posters got in a reply inbetween.

 

[Hjorimir]

High Elf rogue (or Magic Initiate) for Booming Blade. Sneak Attack, cunning action disengage, and boom goes the target when it attempts to follow. At 11th level that's +2d8 damage on the initial strike (9 damage) and another 3d8 if they move (13.5 damage). I'm sure you can run the numbers. This is just an idea mind you, but 5e is pretty flexible and you can generally build to the things that matter most to you as a player pretty easily.

 

[CapnZapp]

If you evaluate the rogue one dimensional about the amount of damage they do, I can see your frustration.

If you include their other combat abilities, especially mobility and to be able to deliver that damage where it will do the most good, and well as their damage avoidance features, and then roll in their expertise (heh) in other pillars of play, you've got a much more robust character.

That purely martial "at-will" characters are not the master of the nova seems to be a design choice. The fact that the design choice also requires 6-8 combats per day in order to balance the three resource models is ... unfortunate.

Where I agree is that there the feats for enhancing combat damage are very uneven, favoring two specific styles (two handed and archers) foremost, and favoring those with Extra Attack over those without it like the rogue. I'd like to see more balanced options across that field.

Rogues are very squishy. The fact they have evasion and bonus dodge does not mean their hp and AC issues go away.

So yes, very unfortunate indeed, agreed.

 

[5ekyu]

The design of the 5E Rogue class is not generous.

In games without feats, and where every adventure day is 8 encounters long, then maybe, just maybe, can the Rogue hold his own in the combat department.

But in games with feats the fighter get upwards of 35 or more damage a round, along with a host of other tricks. That's 10d6! There is no feat to meaningfully increase sneak attack damage.

And in games where the Sorcerer can cast a Fireball together with two Firebolts each combat (for something like 8d6+3d10+3d10+10 damage) the Rogue's so-called "alpha strike" looks just sad.

But the design is not only too stingy with damage. It is poor and counter-intuitive. There is no burst/nova capability. Correct play requires absolute system mastery, to gain two sneak attacks in as many rounds as humanly possible. The Assassinate ability is just mean to the Rogue player, enclosed in so many requirements it basically never happens in games where the party consensus is that solo raids are boring for the rest of the players; much more fun if everybody joins in to the combat simultaneously!

Sure the Rogue has its uses outside of combat, but let's be honest - D&D is a combat-heavy game, and there needs to be a straightforward way to build a Rogue that is competitive in combat.

I loved the 5e rogue.

As with all things in rpgs, the balance comes from the intersection of ability and needs and imx it does very well.

Obviously, at other tables seeing other needs, that may vary.

 

[CapnZapp]

Now, Cunning Action is great, no question there.

Sure - in easy combats.

In hard combats you need your bonus action to deliver a second attack, so you don't fail to deliver sneak damage every turn. (Which sends you straight to the bottom of the DPR list).

This makes you much more vulnerable.

Everybody seems to ignore the fact that you can't keep up your Rogue defenses and deliver damage at the same time.

 

[Imaro]

The rogues "alpha-strike" is to take a bow, shoot, and cunningly dash away. Take the mobile feat and be an aarakocra just to be rediculous. It doesn't matter if the rogue only does 1d8+dex if the enemy can't attack you.


The big issue IMO, is the rogue doesn't play well with the rest of the party. Never has.

This! I had a rogue player who did this (along with hiding because he could use his regular move to duck behind something) and he was a beast in combat... not because he did the most damage but because it was hard to lay a finger on him. Once he took mobile he was able to dart in unhindered on many opponents and strike (with sneak attack) on them without real fear of repercussions then move away and hide again so no ranged weapon users could target him.

EDIT: On the one hand it was a little frustrating as the DM at first but on the other hand I feel like this is exactly how a rogue should be in combat... darting in and out, quickly striking the weakened opponents in close or from a distance and disappearing into the shadows... it's almost iconic.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The big issue IMO, is the rogue doesn't play well with the rest of the party. Never has.

In 3e & 4e, flanking meant that the rogue at least benefited from a modicum of cooperation...