Anyone else tired of the miserly begrudging Rogue design of 5E?

[Pauln6]

I think a big part of the issue is that no two tables are the same. What works in one table may not work in another (even with the same DM). So a fix that works for one table won't for another.

I've tracked damage done by different classes in home games and they're reasonably close given that I don't expect the same damage output from every class (out of combat and support options matter). But there will always be different spikes and valleys at different levels, and different campaigns will have different combat and out of combat expectations.

This is what I found by tracking only damage that removed hit points. Novas feel great but the damage that,matters can be illusory. Your paladin can roll 101 damage on his crit but if the thing had 5hp left, he did 5hp.

Also, mix up your encounter building, some big monsters alongside some mooks. Add scenarios with time limits or where time flows faster to discourage long rests. Add monster patrols to make short rests more tricky. All these variations will produce roller-coaster damage outputs where your fighter and Rogue types will be more consistent than the other classes.

 

[Hussar]

This is what I found by tracking only damage that removed hit points. Novas feel great but the damage that,matters can be illusory. Your paladin can roll 101 damage on his crit but if the thing had 5hp left, he did 5hp.

Also, mix up your encounter building, some big monsters alongside some mooks. Add scenarios with time limits or where time flows faster to discourage long rests. Add monster patrols to make short rests more tricky. All these variations will produce roller-coaster damage outputs where your fighter and Rogue types will be more consistent than the other classes.

Heh. See, this is the direction I was going with when I pointed out that [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] has a very, very specific playstyle and a strong aversion to any suggestion that it's that very playstyle that is the source of pretty much all of his problems. In a group where you only have 1-3 encounters per day, allow for the players to buy magic items and have a group that is heavily into optimization, some classes are just going to get left by the wayside. It's inevitable. I mean, [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION]'s main complaint (or at least one of them) is the lack of feat and multiclassing synergy which, by and large, only matters to people on the bleeding edge of optimization.

So, sure, whatever solution [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] fancies is probably going to spackle over the issues at his table. Fair enough. AFAIC, it's rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Without addressing the core issues, any solution is going to be a stopgap at best.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I've played a 5e thief rogue and found it excellent fun. Their abilities are "always on", they dont need short rests or long rests to refresh their abilities. I dont think they need any buffing. Of course we play without the broken -5/+10 feats (broken) and no paladins (borderline broken).

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

Late to the party but you lost me at ‘correct play’.

No such thing.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

The design of the 5E Rogue class is not generous.

In games without feats, and where every adventure day is 8 encounters long, then maybe, just maybe, can the Rogue hold his own in the combat department.

But in games with feats the fighter get upwards of 35 or more damage a round, along with a host of other tricks. That's 10d6! There is no feat to meaningfully increase sneak attack damage.

And in games where the Sorcerer can cast a Fireball together with two Firebolts each combat (for something like 8d6+3d10+3d10+10 damage) the Rogue's so-called "alpha strike" looks just sad.

If you are still looking for simple house rule solutions I might suggest a simple one of, depending on his Archetype, adding in a Bonus Attack around level 5-6. This is a fairly simple solution that allows him 2 opportunities to hit that Sneak Attack damage while keeping his Bonus Action free to do something Cunning.

 

[CapnZapp]

This thread has got nearly two hundred responses, and I have been quoted dozens of times.

So apologies in advance - I cannot reply to each one individually.

If you have provided genuine feedback on my suggestions back in post #4, feel free to "mention" me like so: [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] and I shall reply.

Thx

 

[Horwath]

I played Wood Elf rogue with Elven accuracy + longbow.

Take one level of fighter sometime for +2 attack.

with that and having range + Hide and rolling 3d20 for an attack, you will hit 90% of the time without being in too much danger.

 

[JonnyP71]

I care little for pure combat mechanics when I choose a character, and I love the Rogue - just started played a stereotypical Swashbuckler pirate-type (complete with fake eyepatch) and he's a lot of fun. Also there's the totally brilliant Arcane Trickster, which harks back to the old Thief/Illusionist combo from days of yore,which was very versatile and entertaining.

Rogue or Wizard or something in between for me, for versatility, for flavour and for FUN.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

I care little for pure combat mechanics when I choose a character, and I love the Rogue - just started played a stereotypical Swashbuckler pirate-type (complete with fake eyepatch) and he's a lot of fun. Also there's the totally brilliant Arcane Trickster, which harks back to the old Thief/Illusionist combo from days of yore,which was very versatile and entertaining.

Rogue or Wizard or something in between for me, for versatility, for flavour and for FUN.

I think this is an important point. The Rogue provides excellent play possibilities beyond DPR Monster for many, many players. To infer that the class is 'broken' based on that one criteria lacks insight into how the player base utilizes and enjoys the class.

 

[jasper]

I AM HAPPY WITH THE ROGUE DPR. REPEAT AFTER ME.
A TANK IS A TANK, AND THE THIEF AIN'T A TANK.
A TANK IS A TANK, AND THE THIEF AIN'T A TANK.
A TANK IS A TANK, AND THE THIEF AIN'T A TANK.
A TANK IS A TANK, AND THE THIEF AIN'T A TANK.
A TANK IS A TANK, AND THE THIEF AIN'T A TANK.
A TANK IS A TANK, AND THE THIEF AIN'T A TANK.
A TANK IS A TANK, AND THE THIEF AIN'T A TANK.
A TANK IS A TANK, AND THE THIEF AIN'T A TANK.
A TANK IS A TANK, AND THE THIEF AIN'T A TANK.
A TANK IS A TANK, AND THE THIEF AIN'T A TANK.

While 5E has increase the DPR of a thief, I will state. D&D was always set up as a group/squad game. Use good tactics to set the best combo of group DPR. Or just go play another system.