Anyone else tired of the miserly begrudging Rogue design of 5E?

[Helldritch]

Our rogue considered Assassin and decided against it - it simply won't happen often enough to justify the subclass. When the whole group wants in on the action, having one party member scout ahead and control when the fight starts isn't fun.

If the feature wasn't so very restricted and curtailed it might have worked, but it is. Besides, to gain it, you have to lose out on Thief things. I'd much rather give the base Rogue some oomph.

The assassination feature is as restrictive as you want it to be. By the same token, it can be as unrestrictive as you want it to be.

Imagine this: A lone unnoticed assassin, is getting into a room from one of the windows. It is the sleeping quarters of the guards. In the room there are two sentries 30 feet appart doing a surveillance round and a dozen other guards are sleeping in their beds. Can the lone assassin can assassinate the whole bunch of them as long as he do it quitely. Get to the first guard kill him quitely, take an arrow/bolt/dagger, shoot, kill the second sentry and then butcher the rest of the sleeping guards. It all depends on what you decide to consider combat. Is there combat when no one notice the dead guard? Or as soon as someone dies, combat is on? I would allow that scene without a second tought.

Second situation.
An assassin shoots with an arrow an unsuspecting guard. He is a wood elf so he uses his ability to hide in the forest. Now everyone know that an arrow came from the forest. But where exactly did it come from? Would you allow a second, third, fourth etc... assassination attempts until the assassin's position is correctly guessed? And if the assassin only attack once every three rounds so that he can manoeuver the poor search parties and starts to assassinate them at his leisure? Would you consider each assassinations as a mini combat or would you consider it the same combat? They are aware, for sure, but there is no clashing of the swords. Should combat only truly start when the assassin is caught red handed? 10 guards (whatever they are) can make a good perception check with advantage to notice where that arrow was shot from. As long as the hide roll bonus action of the assassin is higher than their perception roll, then do you consider the assassin to be out of combat or is he in combat from the very first arrow?

Both examples assume that the target dies from the assassination attempt. This is the kind of thing we see all the time in fiction and both of these situations have happened in my game. With the result that the assassin got his way as he wanted. There were other time where he failed and a normal combat ensued. Would you allow a human assassin to do the same in a heavy/dense foliage where he could get cover? What about fog? Or in darkness where the assassin could position again and again? These are the kind of things that are part of the call of the GM. Do I make the assassin too strong by applying this ruling? And what about the thief that get such a high initiative roll that he can back stab two times before the enemy can react?

The rogue can be quite deadly when he can do his job (and he is allowed to). No fighter could do any of the scenari above. It would just be, kill the first guard and try to position himself so that he would not get flanked (if you use that rule as I do). On the second scenario, he would simply flee. Does that make it a bit dull for the other player to witness? Not at my table. They would simply congratulate the player and be thankful for the saved resources that his daring allowed.

I also saw that scenario: Your dagger cuts deep into the guards back. But he does not fall. He turns around and you see that he was already dead. His red gleaming eyes glare down at you, a fiendish grin forms into a lipless grin as the undead unsheats a black ebony sword. Your soul will be mine, little one...

 

[Mistwell]

Rogues can already use sneak attack once per turn. Isn't this is just a feat for dual wielding rogues or fighter/Ranger/paladin /pact blade/blade singer multiclass builds? Plus a thief at 17th level could be getting 5 sneak attacks in a round, or 6 with 2 levels of fighter on top. If it's a feat to improve the class overall, it favours niche builds quite strongly.

A feat that increases the size of the sneak dice, extra sneak dice (following cantrip progression), a daily pool of backstabbing dice, or a magic item to increase crit range would all seem to be more generally applicable. I suppose you could add your intelligence bonus to sneak damage with the feat but that seems like a small overall bonus.

It's a feat for CapnZapp's game. That's all. It seems to meet his needs, while adding some additional flavor from the medicine stuff.

 

[Pauln6]

It's a feat for CapnZapp's game. That's all. It seems to meet his needs, while adding some additional flavor from the medicine stuff.

Yeah, as a singular fix for a singular character it should do the trick but there was a lot of toing and froing about whether this is a campaign problem or a design problem. I think I'm in the camp that sees it as a campaign problem. Our multiclass battlemaster / Assassin / bladelock dishes out crazy damage in round one. This does include the Sword of Air and Sword of Aqaa both of which can increase damage but I don't allow extra damage from magic items to double on a crit and even with that limitation he does fine (even if the rest of us take a 5 min snooze while rolls all his dice.

 

[Mistwell]

Yeah, as a singular fix for a singular character it should do the trick but there was a lot of toing and froing about whether this is a campaign problem or a design problem. I think I'm in the camp that sees it as a campaign problem. Our multiclass battlemaster / Assassin / bladelock dishes out crazy damage in round one. This does include the Sword of Air and Sword of Aqaa both of which can increase damage but I don't allow extra damage from magic items to double on a crit and even with that limitation he does fine (even if the rest of us take a 5 min snooze while rolls all his dice.

Turns out he thought what I wrote was overpowered and he scaled it back anyway.

 

[jgsugden]

The assassination feature is as restrictive as you want it to be. By the same token, it can be as unrestrictive as you want it to be.

Imagine this:...

The rogue can be quite deadly when he can do his job (and he is allowed to). No fighter could do any of the scenari above...

My Criminal Background Eldritch Knight begs to differ with your statement. Stealth is not the exclusive domain of the ranger and rogue in 5E. And massive damage is certainly not their exclusive area, either. There is no point in his career, from third level on, where he could not handle the situations you describe above as well, or better, than a pure assassin rogue.

 

[Anakzar]

I think the OP wants rogues to have their own thing and if other classes are doing them as well or better then something needs to change.

I have not seen that in my games but have also not gone beyond 6th level... games in my area seem to fall apart after a month or two due to players having to move mainly (military town).

Rogues have been the damage dealers and sneakers doing the rogue thing and doing it well. It might be my DM style but I let rogues get their "backstab" thing most of the time. If another player is within 5 feet of their target they get it, or if they go before the target in a round. They may also get it again if the other PCs have provided enough distraction that I feel the rogue can re-hide in a new spot and he makes a good enough stealth roll.

Also I have allowed the rogue to scout and then come in from a different direction, all while the other players are moving forwards as well, I just do it in turns almost like they are in combat but not so no one is sitting around watching one guy play.

It may not be RAW but I let a rogue have a surprise round if they have made a good stealth check and plan.

Example rogue sneaks ahead and manages to set up hidden and then the rest of the party comes clanking into the room. Rogue has been there and picked his target so when combat begins the rogue gets a surprise round.

 

[Helldritch]

My Criminal Background Eldritch Knight begs to differ with your statement. Stealth is not the exclusive domain of the ranger and rogue in 5E. And massive damage is certainly not their exclusive area, either. There is no point in his career, from third level on, where he could not handle the situations you describe above as well, or better, than a pure assassin rogue.

You are both right and wrong. Yes, stealth is no longer the sole exclusivity of the rogue. He lost it in the second edition when the ranger could do it too. But a single powerful attack is required to do the scenari I talked about. You need to do massive damage with only one attack and not a serie of attacks. A guard is not necessarily a human with 11 hp. It can be an orog (45hp) an ogre (59hp) or even a cambion (82hp). You need to deal that much damage with a single attack to stay in stealth, otherwise, the alarm will be on (unless you have a silence spell cast as a bonus action from some source or whatever...)

Yes your eldritch knight (my personal favourite) can skulk around in a very effective way. So can the wizard, the warlock, the paladin in short, every class can do it now if you put the right background and your mind to it. But you absolutely need the sneak attack feature to deal enough damage on a target to remain stealthy.

 

[CapnZapp]

Very well [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION]

In post 122, I gave feedback on your suggestions. Furthermore, in post 182 I pointed out a serious rule error regarding monks you have apparently been doing in your game.

Ancalagon

If you mean* the post where you suggest to increase the sneak attack dice: thank you - noted.

We are in agreement the monk's flurry is unarmed - maybe you took my comment to mean I let it use the magic +2 dagger on all four attacks.

*) unfortunately post counts are personal, not universal (this is because EN World does not count hidden posts, so unless you and I are on exactly the same people's ignore lists, our post count is going to differ) - better is to quote the post since links do lead you to the correct post regardless. (You do not need to do this in this case assuming I got the posts you intended)

 

[Li Shenron]

Sure the Rogue has its uses outside of combat, but let's be honest - D&D is a combat-heavy game, and there needs to be a straightforward way to build a Rogue that is competitive in combat.

Ok let's be honest... the Rogue has never been a combat-heavy character except probably in 4e. And the whole game has become combat-heavy only in 3e thanks to gamers who wanted it to be. But the game doesn't belong solely to those gamers, and thank God 5e provides some characters also to those who don't always want to fight.

I suggest you play your combat-heavy games without a Rogue (everyone can handle traps and exploration with the right proficiencies, but then you probably don't need much of that if you're in a combat-heavy game), just like combat-light campaigns are happily played without a Fighter or Barbarian in the team.

 

[CapnZapp]

A guard is not necessarily a human with 11 hp. It can be an orog (45hp) an ogre (59hp) or even a cambion (82hp). You need to deal that much damage with a single attack to stay in stealth, otherwise, the alarm will be on (unless you have a silence spell cast as a bonus action from some source or whatever...)

To be technical, I would say "you need to deal that much damage in a single turn".

The number of attacks is immaterial in a game where characters' turns are atomic. In reality, you might only have time for a single sniper attack, and as soon as you have made your shot you need to retreat to avoid detection.

In D&D time effectively freezes when it's your turn. All that matters is if the guard is still alive when your turn is over (and to be precise, that the guard is alive when his own initiative count comes around).

This is why sneak attack is an unimpressive assassinate ability (sneak attack itself - not the assassin's assinate boost): level appropriate guards won't go down on a single sneak attack.

In contrast: they might very well go down on a Fighter's attacks, considering Action Surge. Another class that out-does the Rogue is the Monk: stunlocking the monster is effectively the same as killing it (for purposes of preventing the alarm). Likewise for casters with spells like Hold Monster (selecting a spell targeting an expected poor save).

In short: a good assassin has a burst ability to ensure one combat round is all you need. The ability to sustain the damage without resource expenditure is irrelevant - an assassin can reasonably be expected to select only one difficult encounter per day.

In my opinion "backstab" is a better term than "sneak attack" since it implies you "fight dirty". That is: if you consider the primary function of sneak attack bonus damage is to... increase the Rogue's general DPR - that is, fighting dirty every round of every fight, then your expectations match reality.

In my opinion, connecting this bonus damage with sneak'n'hide gives off the wrong impression. If you view "sneak attack" as making that single massive attack that takes out the enemy unseen, you're better off playing another class in many cases.

Too many, in my opinion, for the Rogue to come across as a generous implementation given its description.