D&D 4E Anyone playing 4e at the moment?

[dave2008]

yes I know and stat increases can be boring (except when they arent).. why not make them automatic with feats something you also get .... oh right.

Or why have them at all?! I don't have any desire for auto attribute increase.

hyper specific special case... my Battlemaster fighter just looks at that and shrugs.

OK

And entirely DM controlled instead of a reflexion of Epic Destinies and paragon paths or really any player choices at all? might as well just admit the story is about characters not actually evolving or progressing in this way. To me 5e characters feel small.

That battlementerI get no maneuvers at high level I couldnt get at level 3 in 5e.... there are many ways characters feel small

Do you actually consider the Theros to be the default game story and how long did it take before that came out? Longer than 4e was even sold.

Nothing of which I am concerned about. I get that it bothers some, but I don't see it as player facing vs DM facing. They are all the game rules to me and my group. It is not like we hide these things from each other. We always discuss what kind of game we want to play and then build our assumptions around that. IMO, 5e give us the tools to build any type of game we want to play. Sometimes we have to do more work than others, but everything we want is there.

I honestly, I don't get why you feel the need to continually impress upon me that 5e doesn't work for you and 4e is so much better for you. What is the point?

 

[Garthanos]

Or why have them at all?! I don't have any desire for auto attribute increase.

For me it directly supports the more epic story with epic advancement which is what I do not feel 5e really supports.

Nothing of which I am concerned about. I get that it bothers some, but I don't see it as player facing vs DM facing.

The very idea of player input on their characters destiny were explicitly removed because....

DM is god in 5e did you miss the memo?

Also awesome for you. DM facing vs Player facing game design choices are very real and 4e finally started giving players their own in game way of saying this is what I want my character to be and become and experience and even this is the magic items I picture highlighting my character with.

I had players let me know (*asked them) what kinds of magic items they would like for their characters way back in 1e and 4e started teaching that trick. But of course that idea of player empowerment too was removed from 5e.

They are all the game rules to me and my group. It is not like we hide these things from each other.

This is 1e all over again where to have a fighter that wasnt blah you had to get the DM to make it so.

We always discuss what kind of game we want to play and then build our assumptions around that. IMO, 5e give us the tools to build any type of game we want to play. Sometimes we have to do more work than others, but everything we want is there.

Also the supernatural gifts of Theros I just looked at read like taking a 4e race without any feat support.

I honestly, I don't get why you feel the need to continually impress upon me that 5e doesn't work for you and 4e is so much better for you. What is the point?

Honestly I do not mind seeing how you make 5e work for you I have been taking notes in general on any thread about making 5e more epic and the like. If you don't see the things I do which limit 5e for me and often they seem ones that 5e intentionally removed from the game which affect how I see it then your techniques wont help me LOL, you do not care about attribute levels (to me they feed into epic stunts)
It is I am sure much like someone else wonders how 4e served your 1e flavor of D&D when it couldnt for them.

 

[dave2008]

For me it directly supports the more epic story with epic advancement which is what I do not feel 5e really supports.



The very idea of player input on their characters destiny were explicitly removed because....

DM is god in 5e did you miss the memo?

Also awesome for you. DM facing vs Player facing game design choices are very real and 4e finally started giving players their own in game way of saying this is what I want my character to be and become and experience and even this is the magic items I picture highlighting my character with.

I had players let me know (*asked them) what kinds of magic items they would like for their characters way back in 1e and 4e started teaching that trick. But of course that idea of player empowerment too was removed from 5e.


This is 1e all over again where to have a fighter that wasnt blah you had to get the DM to make it so.


Also the supernatural gifts of Theros I just looked at read like taking a 4e race without any feat support.

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Honestly I do not mind seeing how you make 5e work for you I have been taking notes in general on any thread about making 5e more epic and the like. If you don't see the things I do which limit 5e for me and often they seem ones that 5e intentionally removed from the game which affect how I see it then your techniques wont help me LOL, you do not care about attribute levels (to me they feed into epic stunts)
It is I am sure much like someone else wonders how 4e served your 1e flavor of D&D when it couldnt for them.

If you want my advice on how to make 5e feel more epic then just ask (though why not just stick with 4e). I am not looking to make 5e more epic (until after lvl 20, which is in fact my current project). Let me reiterate this point - I am not looking to make default D&D more "epic." If anything we try to make it less so. Grittier and more dangerous (just like we did in 4e by the way). So, all your arguing that 4e felt more epic for is really falling on deaf ears. It is not something I am looking for in 5e or 4e for that matter. We like to play in the mud, not the clouds.

Regarding making 5e more epic:
Off the top of my head, why not just port 4e powers over to 5e. Here are some resources for you:

101 Powers from 4th Edition to Make 5e Martial Combat More Interesting, Inspire Awesome Magic Items, and Make Skills Feel Unique

Martial Exploits - This is a conversion of almost 900 4th Edition Martial Powers into 5th Edition abilities

Awesome Options: Signature Powers

Something similar IIRC:
Spheres of Power 5e
Spheres of Might 5e

Spheres of Might:
"Legendary Talents — for when games deserve to become truly epic, legendary talents allow games to reach beyond the gritty to truly mythical proportions, including leaping mountains, stealing skills, and bending armies of monsters to your will through sheer force of personality."

Here is a free fan made version of Spheres of Power for 5e:
Spheres of Power for D&D 5e

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

By the by, for those who would like to make martials use ''powers'' there's already a nice way of doing so:

• Take the UA Mystic from some years ago, change psi points to stamina or whatever, psi focus to Stances etc
• Make a selection of pertinent disciplines for each martial classes.
• Remove the 3 extra attacks of the Fighter and some of the Rogue's sneak attack. Give a varying amount of Stamina to selected classes.

I'm pretty sure you could even convert Stamina points to Slots if you want Spell slots and Maneuvers slots.

 

[Garthanos]

Something similar IIRC:
Spheres of Power 5e
Spheres of Might 5e

Spheres of Might:
"Legendary Talents — for when games deserve to become truly epic, legendary talents allow games to reach beyond the gritty to truly mythical proportions, including leaping mountains, stealing skills, and bending armies of monsters to your will through sheer force of personality."

Thanks for this looks like they are OGL and I can absorb that fairly directly

Home Page - The Spheres 5E Wiki

spheres5e.wikidot.com

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

If you want my advice on how to make 5e feel more epic then just ask (though why not just stick with 4e). I am not looking to make 5e more epic (until after lvl 20, which is in fact my current project). Let me reiterate this point - I am not looking to make default D&D more "epic." If anything we try to make it less so. Grittier and more dangerous (just like we did in 4e by the way). So, all your arguing that 4e felt more epic for is really falling on deaf ears. It is not something I am looking for in 5e or 4e for that matter. We like to play in the mud, not the clouds.

Regarding making 5e more epic:
Off the top of my head, why not just port 4e powers over to 5e. Here are some resources for you:

101 Powers from 4th Edition to Make 5e Martial Combat More Interesting, Inspire Awesome Magic Items, and Make Skills Feel Unique

Martial Exploits - This is a conversion of almost 900 4th Edition Martial Powers into 5th Edition abilities

Awesome Options: Signature Powers

Something similar IIRC:
Spheres of Power 5e
Spheres of Might 5e

Spheres of Might:
"Legendary Talents — for when games deserve to become truly epic, legendary talents allow games to reach beyond the gritty to truly mythical proportions, including leaping mountains, stealing skills, and bending armies of monsters to your will through sheer force of personality."

Here is a free fan made version of Spheres of Power for 5e:
Spheres of Power for D&D 5e

No criticism of any of those particularly, but I'm not sure why I need to convert all my 4e stuff to 5e, personally. I think its fine that people will play 5e and enjoy what it offers. I find it only mildly interesting personally (and only really due to the group of people I played it with TBH). So, rather than do all this porting, I'd just play 4e, since what I would end up with is basically not that much different. I felt like 4e's engine IN GENERAL works better than 5e's anyway, but that's just my opinion.

Frankly, I have played 5e, and I might play it again, but I would start a 4e campaign in a heartbeat! Seems in my current situation its a bit hard to do, but it will happen. Or a campaign using my own 4e-derived rules perhaps.

 

[Garthanos]

No criticism of any of those particularly, but I'm not sure why I need to convert all my 4e stuff to 5e, personally. I think its fine that people will play 5e and enjoy what it offers. I find it only mildly interesting personally (and only really due to the group of people I played it with TBH). So, rather than do all this porting, I'd just play 4e, since what I would end up with is basically not that much different. I felt like 4e's engine IN GENERAL works better than 5e's anyway, but that's just my opinion.

Frankly, I have played 5e, and I might play it again, but I would start a 4e campaign in a heartbeat! Seems in my current situation its a bit hard to do, but it will happen. Or a campaign using my own 4e-derived rules perhaps.

I am fascinated by the idea of modifying/fixing 5e I am not sure why but honestly. Yes 4e just seems to be far more easy to set up and comes with many elements I prefer directly out of the box and maybe the big one for me it feels to be less effort to DM in play.

If I am the DM I most certainly will be playing 4e instead of fixing some other game. But if I can send a resource like Odyssey of the Dragonlords to a DM I know who is playing 5e or Level UP:Advanced 5e, maybe I can leverage things into playing a derivation I would like LOL.

 

[dave2008]

No criticism of any of those particularly, but I'm not sure why I need to convert all my 4e stuff to 5e, personally. I think its fine that people will play 5e and enjoy what it offers. I find it only mildly interesting personally (and only really due to the group of people I played it with TBH). So, rather than do all this porting, I'd just play 4e, since what I would end up with is basically not that much different. I felt like 4e's engine IN GENERAL works better than 5e's anyway, but that's just my opinion.

Frankly, I have played 5e, and I might play it again, but I would start a 4e campaign in a heartbeat! Seems in my current situation its a bit hard to do, but it will happen. Or a campaign using my own 4e-derived rules perhaps.

I agree, I was just responding to Garthanos. However, I also have the same bug that Garthanos has and I like to tinker. I just have the urge to modify things. I did it when I was playing 4e and I do it with 5e. I always like to try and make things better (for me and my group).

For me, the underlying math of BA and advantage work better for the games I want to play then what 4e (and any other D&D style game) offers. So for me it is easier to bring things from 4e to 5e than the other way around.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Huh, mysterious EnWorld glitch.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I am fascinated by the idea of modifying/fixing 5e I am not sure why but honestly. Yes 4e just seems to be far more easy to set up and comes with many elements I prefer directly out of the box and maybe the big one for me it feels to be less effort to DM in play.

If I am the DM I most certainly will be playing 4e instead of fixing some other game. But if I can send a resource like Odyssey of the Dragonlords to a DM I know who is playing 5e or Level UP:Advanced 5e, maybe I can leverage things into playing a derivation I would like LOL.

Yeah, it is just not worth the effort. I'd have to make up a whole set of 4e-style monster stat blocks. I'd have to basically rewrite the skill rules enough to make them work, add SCs, and port over the whole power system. Then I'd be stuck basically making up new classes. I'd have to port over rituals and practices, and then what is the deal with items? Do you work with the 5e items? Do you give them 4e-style stat blocks with powers and properties? Everything has to get keywords, etc. I'd abandon the revanched GW cosmo for WA. By the time I'm done, there's basically 6 ability scores, lol.

I mean, OK, 5e's combat system, given a grid and all, is pretty much like 4e's, but why even use it? I mean, realistically it doesn't offer anything DIFFERENT once you have the grid. Any rules differences seem like they don't ADD anything necessary. I think 4e's conditions are more clear and usable, and really the main thing that I like from this part of 5e is just using advantage/disadvantage vs lots of small modifiers. I can just lift that right into 4e. I don't like 5e's saving throw system, that's gone! And I have to put HS back into the game, with all that entails (and APs too) and the 4e rest structure, etc. etc. etc.

Basically its just cheaper and easier to use 4e as the starting point. I have little incentive to bother with 5e at all. Mechanically 5e brings ALMOST nothing to the table. Yes, you can graft some 4e stuff into 5e and have an inferior version of 4e, but why?

I mean, I get that "nobody will go back and play 4e just on a suggestion", but then the answer IMHO is a whole new game based on 4e. It doesn't have to mention 4e, and it doesn't have to be exactly like 4e. Well, that's what I did. So, people don't get all in arms about why I want them to play 4e, they just want to play this other new interesting game, which JUST HAPPENS to be 4e reimagined as what it would be if it was fully baked