D&D 4E Anyone playing 4e at the moment?

I mentioned earlier yes a fireball can indeed start a forest fire... predicting similar.

Yup. I was making a joke as (predictably) the "BUT BUT you can't use powers for noncombat conflict resolution" was invariably going to be (incorrectly) invoked.

Don't you recall the extremely long "BUT FIRE POWERS CAN'T SET THE ENVIRONMENT AFLAME BECAUSE 'TARGET CREATURES/ENEMIES'" conversation that was quickly and decisively proven incorrect with citations from DMG1/2 and PHBs and then was equally quickly dropped and equally quickly memory holed to be deployed (incorrectly) later (just like its being deployed incorrectly again here).

I mean...this conversation is going to be impossible. To wit:

How can something be abstract and open-descriptor and simultaneously be (objectively) constraining?

Answer: It can't.

What the user should say is:

"I have a particular cognitive disposition that disables me from even getting to the conception of an open/broad-descriptor (abstract) system let alone getting to the deployment phase (where its integrated with the shared imagined space in which situation + action declaration + action resolution = gamestate and shared imagined space changes)."

These conversations are impossible because user error and cognitive incompatibility (typically born due to lack of exposure and/or deep internalization of an alternative model - eg some level of granular process simulation) get conflated with "this game doesn't work."
 

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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Well I am here to tell you that you can run them that way in 5e, works just fine! ;)
A DM being able to fix... oh never mind.
Yup. I was making a joke as (predictably) the "BUT BUT you can't use powers for noncombat conflict resolution" was invariably going to be (incorrectly) invoked.

Don't you recall the extremely long "BUT FIRE POWERS CAN'T SET THE ENVIRONMENT AFLAME BECAUSE 'TARGET CREATURES/ENEMIES'" conversation that was quickly and decisively proven incorrect with citations from DMG1/2 and PHBs and then was equally quickly dropped and equally quickly memory holed to be deployed (incorrectly) later (just like its being deployed incorrectly again here).

I mean...this conversation is going to be impossible. To wit:

How can something be abstract and open-descriptor and simultaneously be (objectively) constraining?

Answer: It can't.
Well aside from a user not understanding the meaning of abstract. Maybe they want more explicit handles to hang their head on.... ie maybe they want less open-ended. I already asked if it was about not wanting any mechanics at all so they had to build whole hog, but no.

What the user should say is:

"I have a particular cognitive disposition that disables me from even getting to the conception of an open/broad-descriptor (abstract) system let alone getting to the deployment phase (where its integrated with the shared imagined space in which situation + action declaration + action resolution = gamestate and shared imagined space changes)."

These conversations are impossible because user error and cognitive incompatibility (typically born due to lack of exposure and/or deep internalization of an alternative model - eg some level of granular process simulation) get conflated with "this game doesn't work."
I am assuming they are going to find that even less approachable too
 

No, by open ended, I mean something that can deal with every situation that I have imagined for the last 40 years in D&D, which 4e did not allow me to do, in particular because all the powers of the classes are limited to combat, focussed on playing on a grid, and allow absolutely no freedom in their interpretation.
Wait a minute here! Woah! Interpretation is, by definition, a process which can only exist at, and stem from, the table. 4e gives you keywords and other thematic 'hooks', page 42, and some pretty 'out there' ED thematics too. Then it gives you SCs as a framework into which any sort of arbitrary action can fit in terms of what its impact is.

Anyone who is unwilling to say "well, the rogue's Thief of Legends ED says he can 'steal anything' and we're in this SC where he would like to find a way to see the path leading to the Uttermost Outpost, can't he just steal the One True Dragon's vision? Of course he can! Roll a Thievery Check! I mean, could it be handed to one on a silver platter to any greater degree?

Even at Heroic tier it seems pretty much just an exercise of the page 42 rules, or maybe a clever exercise of tools like Terrain Powers by the GM to do 'crazy stuff'. Once a dwarf PC had a Flaming Axe (which actually came about through some earlier narrative stuff) and because the Axe was tied to a famous demon-slaying dwarf of the past he pulled it out and just ran up to a demon gate which a Balrog was trying to force its way through, and shattered it with a mighty blow! This was totally made up on the spot. As envisaged solving this problem wasn't really supposed to be within the immediate capabilities of the PCs, but the dwarf did sac his precious magic item, and demonstrated that he would do ANYTHING to protect his homeland.

There's not really a problem with this sort of thing emerging in 4e play IMHO. You just have to do it, there's plenty of 'freedom of interpretation' there. Just as much as there is in 5e!

A smaller example was all the ways that the Halfling Thief in one of our games used the power Bat Aside (Rogue daily level 5 attack power) which lets you push an enemy several squares and then knock him down, along with anyone now adjacent (IE you basically toss him into his friends and they all go down in a heap). This player just LOVED this power, he'd create all these crazy setups and then his halfling would come flying up on a rope, or leap off a ledge, or sometimes just run up and scare the target into running away pellmell into his allies. He had a dozen ways to describe it, and sometimes he'd even describe the results in different ways. It all just worked.
 

pemerton

Legend
It's still on the same grid, it's still the same kind of effects, just affecting more squares with bigger damage.

And what I'm saying is that this does not work, because you just do more damage to monsters with bigger hit points, so the overall effect is null.

<snip>

There are very few powers (compared to spells in other editions), they are all geared towards combat, and they mostly look the same from one class to the next, in addition to being totally bland, I gave examples in previous posts).
You seem to have misread my post. To self-quote and thereby restate:

The numbers being bigger is neither here nor there - HeroQuest revised can do Heroic-tier stuff or Epic-tier stuff using the same numbers. In 4e D&D there are two rationales (beyond tradition) for growing the numbers: (1) to help imbue a sense of scaling, given the pre-packaged game elements in the form of monster, trap and treasure lists; (2) to allow the change I described in the relationship between PCs and NPC/creatures (ie an increase in PC "depth" in contrast to a relatively greater degree of NPC/creature hit point and damage scaling).
As far as the powers being the same from one class to the next - that's just obviously false. What wizard power is the same as what fighter power?

I'm also not sure why spells are your comparison point. Not every D&D character has spells; and not every spell is a primarily combat ability. The non-combat abilities of 4e PCs are located primarily in their skills and (for some, analogous to AD&D or 3E spellcasters) in their rituals. The use of powers in the context of skill checks (to open up fictional positioning, and/or to provide a bonus or yield auto-success on a check) is discussed in the PHB and the two DMGs. Here's an actual play Epic example:

As reported here, the PCs in my 4e game had killed Lolth and were facing off against Pazuzu.

We played a session today which saw some fairly significant occurrences.

The session started with the dominated Pazuzu taking his turn. The controlling PC - the invoker/wizard - commanded him to fly into the Abyssal rift. The roll needed to hit was 13, but +2 from combat advantage (vs a dominated target) made it 11. The player rolled, and got a 10. 1 short. Then another player argued that, because the command was for Pazuzu to "charge into the Rift" it should get a +1 to hit. Being a soft-hearted GM, and feeling that the Pazuzu plot-line had probably run its course, I acceded. So Pazuzu flew into the rift and got grappled.

This then triggered a secondary attack to suck him into the heart of the Abyss. The roll for that was 13 (with something like a 9 or 10 required) and so in Pazuzu went!

It then came to the drow sorcerer's turn. In an email a few days ago the player had told me that he had a plan to seal off the Abyssal rift created by the tearing of the Demonwebs and the killing of Lolth, that relied upon the second law of thermodynamics. Now was the time for him to explain it. It took quite a while at the table (20 minutes? Maybe more? There was a lot of interjection and discussion). Here is the summary version:

* The second law of thermodynamics tells us that time and entropy are correlated: increases in entropy from moment to moment are indicative of the arrow of time;

* Hence, when entropy reaches its maximum state - and so cannot increase - time has stopped;

* Hence, if an effect that would normally last until the end of the encounter could be turned into an effect of ultimate chaos (entropy), time would stop in respect of the effect and it would not come to an end.​

So far, so good, but how is this helping to seal off the Abyss?

* Earlier in the encounter the sorcerer had created a Cloak of Winter Storm which, using an elemental swapping item, was actually a zone of thunder (larger than normal because created while a Huge primordial) that caused shift 1 sq which, through various feat combos, was actually teleportation;

* If this could be extended in size, and converted into a zone of ultimate entropy instead of just a zone of thunder, then it would not come to an end (for the reasons given above);

* Furthermore, anyone who approached it would slow down (as time came to a stop with the increase in entropy) and, if they hit it, be teleported back 1 square;

* As to how a zone of elemental thunder might be converted into a zone of ultimate entropy, that's what a chaos sorcerer is for - especially as, at that time, the Slaad lord of Entropy, Ygorl, was trapped inside the Crystal of Ebon Flame and so control over entropy was arguably unclaimed by any other entity and hence available to be claimed by the sorcerer PC.​

But couldn't someone who wanted to pass through this entropic barrier just teleport from one side to the other?

* On his turn, the sorcerer therefore spent his move action to stand from prone (I can't now remember why he had started the session prone), and used his minor action to activate his Cloud of Darkness - through which only he can see;

* He then readied his standard action to help the invoker/wizard perform the mighty feat of Arcana that would merge the darkness and the zone into a visually and physically impenetrable entropic field, through which nothing could pass unless able to teleport without needing line of sight.​

Unfortunately, the invoker/wizard wasn't ready to help with this plan, and had doubts about its chaotic aspect. On his turn, he instead rescued the paladin and fighter PCs who had become trapped in the Abyssal rift (by casting Tide of the First Storm to wash them back up onto the top of the PCs' Thundercloud Tower).

He also used his Erathis's Beacon blessing - a heal effect - to instead cast Remove Affliction as a minor action rather than the normal 1 hour ritual, which rescued the dwarf PC from Far Realm-induced protoplasmic helplessness. (As is the convention in the game, this non-standard use permanently exhausted the blessing.) The healing unfortunately reduced the dwarf fighter to unconsciousness, but his Ring of Pelor (I can't remember now what it's name is in the rulebook) activated and he turned into a cloud of ash, ready to recorporate next round with half his hit points back, and to take on Pazuzu if necessary.

The paladin then used his turn to bodily pick up the drow and carry him into the control circle of the Tower (at the drow's request).

Pazuzu's turn came around, but he did not re-emerge from the rift. This caused some speculation, but there was a general consensus that he could probably survive the harsh Abyssal forces and so mightn't suffer in the same way the PCs had upon being sucked in.

The drow's turn then came around. He used his move action to fly the Tower up and out of the two zones (darkness and thunder). He then used a minor action to cast Stretch Spell - as written, a range-boosting effect but it seemed fitting, in spirit, to try to extend and compress zones to create a barrier of ultimate, impenetrable entropy. And then he got ready to make his Arcana check as a standard action.

Now INT is pretty much a dump stat for everyone in the party but the invoker/wizard. In the case of the sorcerer it is 12 - so with training and level, he has an Arcana bonus of +20. So when I stated that the DC was 41, it looked a bit challenging. (It was always going to be a Hard check - if any confirmation was needed, the Rules Compendium suggests that manipulating the energies of a magical phenomenon is a Hard Arcana improvisation.)

So he started looking around for bonuses. As a chaos mage, he asked whether he could burn healing surges for a bonus on the roll - giving of his very essence. I thought that sounded reasonable, and so allowed 4 surges for +8. Unfortunately he had only 2 surges left, so the other half of the bonus had to come from taking damage equal to his bloodied value - which was OK, as he was currently unbloodied.

He scraped another +2 from somewhere (I can't remember now), brining the roll needed down to 11. The dice was rolled - and came up 18! So he succeeded in converting his zones of darkness and thunder into a compressed, extended, physically and visually impenetrable entropic barrier, in which time doesn't pass (and hence the effects don't end), sealing off the Abyss at its 66th layer.

The unfortunate side effect, as was clarified between me (as GM) and the player before the action was declared, was that - as the effects never end - so he can never recharge his Cloak of Darkness encounter power or his Cloak of the Winter Storm daily.

A modest price to pay for cementing the defeat of Lolth and sealing off the bottom of the Abyss from the rest of creation.
The example just posted illustrates the points made in this post:
Besides Page 42, skill challenges, and rituals / martial practices, 4e characters also got a lot of mileage out of just the basic skill system. Every skill had lots of player-empowering options, and each included multiple examples of creative ways to improvise using your skills.

<snip>

So, looking just to a character's powers to decide that the game is locked-down and combat-oriented is deceiving because powers were primarily designed for use in combat (though of course utility powers and skill powers could also be used out-of-combat, and characters could always use powers out-of-combat if they made sense, e.g., in a skill challenge). But the core skill system alone really opens up the possibilities for 4e characters to do lots of things that would have required express permission in the form of a spell or class feature in other editions of D&D.
My actual play example shows illustrates the centrality of skill checks to non-combat resolution, with both utility and attack powers being relevant to establish appropriate fictional positioning. And it shows the use of healing surges as a common currency to grant bonuses to checks. These are all key features of 4e, including of 4e's approach to Epic - as I posted in my first contribution to this thread.

my AD&D fighter is not stuck two dimensionally on a grid where flying just means that he evades AoO, using the same powers as mostly any other class, and being constrained as well in the items he owns and how they work.
This doesn't make any sense to me. The 4e DMG has a pretty solid discussion of the use of terrain, including verticality, in encounter design. Here are a couple of actual pay Epic examples:

The PCs in my 4e game have gone to the Feywild looking for the Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, so they can destroy the Frost Giants who are massing, in alliance with Lolth and the Prince of Frost, to start a War of Seasons that will overthrow the Summer Fey and steal control over winter away from the Raven Queen.

In a previous session, they travelled to the Feywild and got directions to the giants.

Since then, a lot of d20s have been rolled.

I'm using photocopies of my old G2 maps, blown up onto A3 paper, with notes on cavern occupants and stats written up where necessary. (I'm not using Chris Perkins' conversion, partly because I got the idea before he had written his conversions, partly because my PCs are mid-Epic and so I would need to convert his conversion anyway, partly because I suspect that his conversion would be a bit encounter-heavy for my taste, and it's already going to be encounter-heavy as it is.)

I have kept some of the occupants the same (eg frost giants in the original get converted to frost giants in my version, with a healthy dose of minions). I kept the remorhaz, and some high-level winter wolves, on the floor of the rift.

In the upper level I also put some eladrin emissaries from the Winter Court, with an eldritch giant friend, and their rimefire griffons and a (huge, roc-sized) frosthawk for the giant. And some Eisk Jaat ("cold dwarves" from the Plane Below) in place of the yetis - they work the rimefire forges for the giants.

The PCs flew into the rift from the south, on phantom steeds. They saw the eladrin and landed. Negotiations opened poorly, with the drow sorcerer proclaiming his allegiance to Corellon and denouncing Lolth and the Winter Fey. The eladrin repsonded with hostilities, and the Bralani (sp?) of the Autumn Winds blasted them with a gust of wind that blew the paladin off the ice ledge down into the rift below. (He now has winged boots, which stop him taking falling damage. These were acquired partly in recognition of the fact that he gets blown over ledges a lot.)

The ranger got blown over too, but used his safewing amulet and Acrobatics to negate the damage, and flew back up on his flying carpet.

Up on the ledge the PC invoker/wizard was able to retaliate by flying to a position behind the eladrin and then using a gust of wind from the Rod of 5 (of 7) Parts to blow a couple of eladrin over. So the combat ended up having three parts: the ranger in the air, fighting flying eladrin plus their steeds; the sorcerer and invoker up on the ledge fighting the eladrin that remained there; and the paladin down on the rift floor, fighting one of the eladrin that survived the fall plus the remorhaz that was attracted by all the activity.

There is a 5th PC, but because his player couldn't attend the session, we assumed that his giant-slaying mordenkraad, Overwhelm, had got the scent of giants and had led him away from the rest of the party to do some solo giant-slaying.

At the end of the session, the eladrin, edritch giant and griffons were all dead, and the invoker had tamed the giant's frosthawk (with a successful Nature check plus some gentle words spoken in elven). The paladin was inside the remorhaz (but, being a tiefling, was mostly enduring the auto-fire damage it does to swallowed creatures). The ranger was still in the air on his carpet.

The next session began with the ranger spotting the 5th PC, the dwarf fighter wielding Overwhelm, in melee with a group of giants on the ledge at the other end of the rift (around areas 16-20, for those who know the module).

The ranger flew off to help on his carpet. The invoker followed on his newly-tamed giant frosthawk, but not before giving the sorcerer a lift down to the rift floor, where he was able to try and free the paladin from the remorhaz.

The remorhaz fight was quite amusing, as it burrowed down into the earth to try and get away from the pesky sorcerer, but got followed through the tunnel being blown up from the outside while the paladin stabbed it from the inside, using second wind (free action for a bloodied Questing Knight) and a couple of Lay on Hands to keep himself alive. Meanwhile, the flying PCs managed to make it down the rift (multiple rounds of fight, as it is a long map even in 10' squares, and so becomes very long when everything gets multiplied by 2), where they helped the dwarf with his giants.

Eventually the sorcerer killed the remorhaz and the paladin was able to cut himself out, but they then had to make it to the other end of the rift. The sorcerer has at-will fly (via Dominant Winds) but that is not very good for two people.

Then a solution suggested itself.

In an earlier session (linked to above), the PCs had helped an eladrin noble deal with a demon that was cursing his apple grove. I told the players that the noble gave them a reward, and gave them licence to choose their own item or items of 28th level or equivalent value. They chose some sensible, eladrin-noble-appropriate stuff (a couple of elfin chain shirts, the winged boots, a ring of regeneration and a surge-boosting belt) but the player of the sorcerer also liked the idea of the 25th level magical vehicle the Thundercloud Tower (from a Dungeon magazine, maybe one of the Giants ones). It seemed unlikely that an eladrin noble had such a thing on-hand to gift to them, so we agreed that the best they got was to learn rumour of its existence on the Elemental Chaos from the noble, while discussing the threat that the Elemental Chaos (especially its giants) poses to the Feywild.

It had already been discussed that the Glacial Rift was very cold (the PCs are under the protection of an Endure Primordial Elements ritual, cast by the sorcerer), infused with the stuff of the Elemental Chaos. And so the player of the sorcerer decided that perhaps the Thundercloud Tower was somewhere here, having crossed over from the Elemental Chaos. This actually wasn't as farfetched as it might seem, because I had already decided that the mad Storm Giant Mirkamaur (sp?), a servant of the Crushing Wave detailed in the Plane Below, was visiting the giants (in the original I think it is a storm giant princess who is in the lower levels), and a Thundercloud Tower seemed like the sort of vehicle that he might travel in.

So the player made a perception check, assisted by the player of the paladin, and indeed they realised that one of the spires of rock half-buried in snow and wind-blown ice was in fact not a natural outcropping at all, but a 30' tall tower. They made their way in, up the stairs and to the top where the drow made an Arcana check to attune himself to the control circle for the tower. The next round they were up and away.

By this time the giants at the other end of the rift had mostly been mopped up, being beaten up by the dwarf as well as sniped by the ranger and blown up by the invoker, but all the PCs were able to rendezvous for a short rest in the flying tower. As they were resting they were able to see the giants running along the ledges, apparently regrouping in the caves at the south end of the rift. The PCs with range 20 attacks were able to get a few hits in (that's the invoker with Mantle of the Infidel, the ranger with Twin Strike, and the sorcerer firing lightning bolts from the tower), and they killed 7 giant minions as around another 30 or so were seen making it into the southern caves.

Then, before the PCs could plan their next step, from that same southern direction, flying out of the snowy sky, came two dragons - a huge Blizzard Dragon, obviously in alliance with the giants, and an ancient White Dragon being ridden by a frost giant chieftain. At first they thought the White Dragon must have been enslaved (given its natural enmity towards a catastrophic dragon) but then when I read them the relevant lore from the Monster Manual, they learned that white dragons will sell their services for diamonds and meat, and they figured the giants might have plenty of meat to go around.

This combat took the form of an aerial assault upon the tower, where the PCs were all in position on the crenellated roof. The PCs with ranged attacks had the initial advantage, as they alll got a round of attacks as the dragons closed in. This proved bad for the blizzard dragon: having the speed advantage over the white, it was closer, and therefore got quarried first, and proceeded to get blasted by two crits from two Twin Strikes, plus a good blow from the fighter throwing Overwhelm (one of its properties is to be a throw-and-return mordenkraad), plus a dose of Demonsoul Bolts from the sorcerer, who adds around +50 to his dice when dealing thunder damage with forced movement.

It got off one round of attacks before being killed.

The white dragon did better, though. It had an aura 5 of 30 cold auto-damage, which was quite effective as it closed in, and a good initial breath did a bit of damage as well. It got blasted with AoEs by the sorcerer (action point for Blazing Starfall, plus standard action Blazing Starfall, plus quickened Blazing Starfall as a minor action, all admixtured with thunder to do a lot of damage), which hit the giant as well, but I had given the dragon a mount ability, to soak half of any burst or blast damage dealt to its rider, so the giant survived.

One of the Starfalls critted, which from a chaos sorcerer knocks the dragon prone, and also blinds it with a Glimpse of the Abyss. So it fell, but was able to recover before reaching the ground (they were about 300' up, and it succeeded at its DC 30 Athletics check after falling 100'), and then under the guidance of its giant rider was able to come up beneath the tower, gaining total cover from any attacks.

The invoker came up with a plan to blast it out of its cover: he conjured his imp (minor action), had it fly down to the base of the tower (move action), activated his third eye (another minor action: the imp has the Eye of Vecna in it, though now no longer under Vecna's influence, and when the invoker activiates his 3rd eye he can see through his imp's eyes and has LoS and LoE from there) and then spent an action point to attack with Thunderwave (encounter power as a multi-class wizard), the plan being to blast the dragon out from beneath the tower, so the ranged strikers could attack it, and to blast the giant of its mount so it would take 25d10 or so falling down to the bottom of the rift.

The invoker is also a Divine Philosopher (and so gets two attack rolls with an action point) and a Sage of Ages (and so gets to roll a bonus d20 at the start of each round, and substitute that into any roll desired). The bonus roll was a 1, so he ignored that. His two rolls against the dragon were a 3 and a 4. He needed a 12 to hits its Fort, and so was 8 short - but he has a d8 for Memories of 1000 Lifetimes, and a +3 from Insightful Riposte. So as long as he rolled 5 or more on his Memories roll he would still hit. So he rolled that, but got a 2. Then he rolled to hit the giant and rolled another 4, missing it.

So a valiant plan came to naught.

Still under the guidance of the giant, the dragon then - on its free action 10 ahead of its normal initiative - flew out from under the tower, and up the side that the invoker was on, and attacked the invoker. Between aura, a hit and a crit he was well and truly bloodied. Though when the giant attacked him the paladin PC retaliated with Eye for an Eye, and so it briefly became a case of the blind leading the blind.

Then on the dragon's actual turn, with its sight back, it encased the ranger in an icy tomb: stunned, immune to forced movement and OG 60 cold (SE all). Various other attacks - a breath weapon, plus more aura damage - were wittling away at the party and it looked like they might be going to lose. But then the players came up with a plan.

The dragon was flying about 2 squares away from the tower. So the fighter ran and jumped onto its back as a charge. The paladin was then able to blast it away from the tower with Strength of Ten, and the sorcerer used his high level Power Jewel to regain Demonsoul Bolts and used them to blast it further away. This got all of the PCs except for the fighter out of its aura. The paladin also used Divine Mettle to give the ranger a save at +8, which was successful, and so the power of the Raven Queen melted away his icy tomb, and he was then able to help himself, the paladin and the sorcerer with a Word of Vigour.

Around this time the dragon got bloodied, and the fighter did more damage to it with a jackal strike. He action pointed and pounded away (including with a Battle Cry which delivered more badly-needed healing), and there were ranged attacks also. The dragon hit him with its claws (including a crit) and got in a couple of bites too (though both did only miss damage), but his Battle Cry plus a Second Wind (2 surges with Cloak of the Walking Wounded) kept him up.

When the dragon tried to fly off carrying the fighter with it, he hit it with an OA which immobilised it (Pinning Strike feat), and then on his turn he hit it with something (I can't remember what) that knocks it prone. So it crashed, and this time - because it was no longer over the open rift but rather the icy ledge - it had no opportunity to recover before crashing. Both the fighter and the dragon took 26 hp from 50' of falling damage. (I gave the player of the fighter the chance to make an Acro check to ride the dragon down - half damage on a success, 1.5 damage on a fail - but he declined, and so they landed 5 squares apart.)

The invoker's turn then came up in the sequence, and he critted against the dragon with Mantle of the Infidel. It took 50-odd damage and had only 10 hp left after the fall, and so lost its chance to fly to freedom. The sorcerer then retook control of the tower, flew it down to the level of the ledge, and the dwarf hopped back on and they took a short rest.

After spending surges, the paladin and sorcerer are at full hp, and the fighter, ranger and invoker just a tad short. The fighter has 3 surges left (of 14), the paladin 8 (of 18 - the ranger, who is also a cleric, has been using Shared Healing to soak the paladin's surges to heal others), the ranger and invoker 2 or 3 each, and the sorcerer 5. (They were all at full surges, or very close to, when they arrived at the Rift.) They still have a reasonable number of dailies left - which they were conserving, somewhat, in anticipation of the giants - but are expecting to find the assault on the giant's defensive position a challenging one. On the plus side, they have just reached 27th level.

The dragon fight itself was only 27th level (so one above the party level of 26th), but played much tougher than that because of the terrain, which greatly favoured the dragon - the defenders weren't able to lock it down until the fighter leaped onto its back, and it used its mobility to good advantage, including exploiting its auto-damage aura. The fact that the ranger's saves to break out of the icy tomb never made it above 9 on the d20 (the successful roll was a 5, with +8 from the paladin's CHA) also helped - he failed the save at the start of his turn (vs the stun component, from Superior Will), failed it again when the invoker used Demand Justice, failed at the end of his turn, and only succeeded when the paladin used Divine Mettle.

For anyone else introducing a Thundercloud Tower into their game, I highly recommend an aerial assault by dragons as a way to break it in!
In the last post I made, the PCs had defeated the Frost Giants and the Prince of Frost on the Feywild. After that, they headed into the Elemental Chaos, flying their Thundercloud Tower (taken from the Storm Titan Mirmakur) down the edge of the Obelisk of Ice.

During that trip, they were attacked by entropic slaads (various sorts of black slaads, plus a white slaad and Acolytes of Entropy led by Skirnex), all under the leadership of Ygorl riding Shkiv. This was a level 33 combat against the level 28 party, and so was inevitably going to take a little while to resolve. We didn't get it finished in our last session (early November) and picked up again today, doing our best to make sense of the photographs taken of the battlemap at the end of the last session.

As published, the black slaads have slightly varying mechanics for representing their entropic nature, but I had systematised these as attacks that inflicted various degrees of vulnerable all (save ends), with a rider that the vulnerability stacks with other vulnerabilities. In combination ranged attacks from two non-minion black slaads, 8 minions and Skirnex, this meant quite a bit of stacking vulnerability, which meant that at some stages my minions were hitting for 30+ points of damage per attack!

Some dramatic highlights included the first time the white slaad used its ability to split into time-slices of itself, which caught the players by surprise and through a bit of a minion-esque spanner into their works; and also the fighter leaping off the parapets of the tower and surfing the slaads that were riding the waves of chaos as they made ranged attacks.

Ygorl was relatively effective, with a good aura of more entropic vulnerability that also gave his slaad allies multiple rolls to hit. And given that he comes into being at the end of time and is moving backwards towards the beginning of the world, I needed to give him an ability that prevented him being killed - a no action attack cancellation + teleport that recharged every time he used it to avoid dropping to zero hit points.

As the details of this became clearer to the players, their frustration grew somewhat. I suggested that they needed to find a way to create an alternate timeline, and the player of the drow sorcerer was encouraging the wizard/invoker to try and do something with his +42 Arcana and his Timeless Locket. But that player came up with a different plan instead, which they then implemented.

First, he summoned the Crystal of the Ebon Flame, which was currently stored in an angelic redoubt on the Abyss inside his Leomund's Secret Chest (play report here).

Then, he prepared the Crystal to receive and trap Ygorl when the latter was struck with the Sceptre of Law (= the Rod of Seven Parts, currently in a 5-stage assembly). This required an Arcana and Religion check, both of which are auto-successes for him but contributed to the overall skill challenge.

Meanwhile, Ygorl was fleeing, double-moving through the Chaos at speed 8, while the PCs in the Tower were chasing him, also double-moving at 8, which meant that the pilot PC (the sorcerer) did not get to take a short rest, and neither did the invoker/wizard making his preparations.

The pilot made his DC 30 Arcana check to navigate through the Chaos in pursuit of Ygorl, and once the ritual involving the Sceptre and the Crystal was complete the next step of the plan was put into action.

The gap between the Tower and Ygorl alternated between 28 and 12 squares (28 sq after Ygorl's move, 12 sq after the Tower's move). To touch Ygorl with the Sceptre this gap had to be closed, which required reducing Ygorl's speed. The party had no way to slow him without also inflicting damage, which would drop him below zero hp and therefore trigger his attack negation ability. So they came up with a plan to grapple him instead, which would immobilise him, forcing him to double-teleport at 6, which would allow the Tower to close in three rounds (gaining 4 squares each time).

Grappling required getting someone close. Luckily, back on the elemental chaos the invoker/wizard had tamed a giant (roc-sized) Frosthawk, which itself had a speed of 8. So with a double fly taken after the Tower's move but before Ygorl's, they could catch up to Ygorl (go stop-motion action resolution!).

The dwarf fighter had the best chance to grapple. Ygorl's Reflex defence is 39. The dwarf had +14 from level, +4 from epic tier (a house rule to make non-enhancement-bonus attacks still viable at higher tiers), +8 from STR and +1 from the ranger's quarry on Ygorl (Battlefield Archer, flavoured as the Raven Queen's curse). So he needed a 12. The ranger and paladin decided that they would fly out with the invoker and fighter on the bird and help hurl the fighter onto Ygorl, giving +4 from Aiding Another. Which seemed fine to me, and reduced the target number to 8. In case of emergency, the fighter tucked the ranger's Flying Carpet into the top of his Handy Haversack.

The bird flew out with the 4 PCs riding it. The dwarf duly leaped onto Ygorl, aided by his brothers-in-arms, and the player proceeded to roll a 6. So he went tumbling, but with his minor action pulled out the carpet and with his move action flew 6 squares. That meant that, when his next turn came around Ygorl was 10 squares away (after double-moving for 16 - non-tracking of diagonal moving makes this 3-dimensional combat much easier to resolve!).

We then looked up the jumping rules. The character has +27 Athletics, and with Mighty Sprint can give himself another +5, and with his +10 daily Epic Destiny bonus to STR checks and skills was able to push the total to +42. So with a mighty leap he cleared the 50-odd feet between him and Ygorl. In my generosity I gave him a +2 to hit for combat advantage, because Ygorl was not expecting that. So he needed a 10 to hit. The roll was, once again, a 6.

This time the fighter had no Flying Carpet to pull out, and so kept falling. Luckily the waves of chaos buffered his fall (gravity in the Elemental Chaos is far from straightforward) and there was an earthmote beneath him. So I declared that he took only 4d12 damage from his landing (I think around 30 points after rolling). More on that below.

The STR of the paladin and the cleric-ranger was now compared: 14 (he's a CHA paladin) vs 12, (he's an archer-ranger) so the paladin was next in line to try a grab on Ygorl. The player was reluctant, deeming his chances of success too low, but the player of the invoker was egging him on (the word "coward" was thrown around a bit). He decided to try it, and the roll was 17. So Ygorl was grabbed, hence immobilised, hence reduced to teleport as a movement option. Ygorl used his Arcana to try to injure the paladin via dangerous teleports through the waves of chaos, but with 3 attempts succeeded only on 2 of his DC 40 Arcana checks, and only one of the resulting attacks hit the paladin's Fort defence. He took 30-ish (?) hp of damage.

With the Tower caught up to Ygorl, the invoker/wizard was able to muster his arcane forces, touch him with the Sceptre and force him into the Crystal. There was no room for Miska in there as well, and I put a choice to the player - either Miska manifests here and now in the Tower, or he is whole but trapped in the prison-plane Carceri. The player opted for the latter. I then mentioned to the player of the drow, who is a Corellon worshipper, that he had heard that Carceri is not fully secure, and that it "leaks" prisoners into Arvandor, where Corellon and the other elven gods and chosen hunt them down. Whether more powerful prisoners are more likely to escape and requiring hunting is something that the PC is not sure about.

The player of the invoker/wizard was happy with this outcome, because Miska is now ready for him to kill once he gets his Rod of 7 Parts fully powered up. It also produced some speculation about how these events fit into Ygorl's timeline from the future - the best theory is that the Crystal of Ebon Flame is integral in the end of the world, and that Ygorl is the Crystal, or an emanation of it, that came into being at the precise moment before being trapped by the PCs and then commenced his trajectory into the past. I was happy to have yet another event apparently confirming the imminence of the Dusk War, which is what everything seems to be building towards.

Now, back to the dwarf. As he was falling, he could see that the earthmote below him was some dozens of miles wide, and had a building in its centre that looked like a fortified village or compount of some sort. As he got closer he could see humanoid creatures there, drilling in unarmed combat - githzerai! (I described the scene as resembling the closing scene of Tai Chi master, for anyone who knows that early-90s Jet Li flim.)

As he got still closer, he could see 20 disciples and two masters, one looking old and wizened even for a githzerai. When one of the disciples looked up at this dwarf falling gradually down, the younger master struck him across the cheek, with a curt instruction not to be distracted - "It will get here in due time, and you will see it then."

When the dwarf eventually landed (and officially took his 4d12 damage, although it had already been resolved), he picked himself up as the same young master came towards him and asked where he had come from and what he was doing there. The dwarf said something to the effect of it being a long story. The older master then said something that the dwarf couldn't understand, presumably in Deep Speech. The young master said "My master, Liricosa, asks if you can fight." The dwarf replied "Yes." The master said, "He asks that you spar with the disciples, to prove it." The dwarf replied "Only twenty!" At which point the disciples started rushing in as he pulled out his polearm (Polearm Gamble is quite effective against closing minions!).

We had to end the session at that point, but the player of the dwarf thinks he can finish 20 minions in three rounds. We'll see.

I don't think your posts exhibit a very good familiarity with the basics of 4e, as articulated in its rulebooks and exemplified in play.
 


I don't think your posts exhibit a very good familiarity with the basics of 4e, as articulated in its rulebooks and exemplified in play.
I think it is most fair to state that there are those who have a very open-ended approach to RPGs and will run with structures like keywords and the general conceptual skill framework (which I really see as more a list of 'knacks' or even 'preferred approaches' of the PCs rather than a laundry list of knowledge they possess, though knowledge is certainly there too). There are also people for whom the words on the page are simply exactly what they say and nothing more. I don't think these categories are absolute, but instead seem to be gated to a degree by the presentation of the material.

I always felt rather inhibited by the 3.x kind of presentation. Granted its spells are more traditional and less specific than 4e powers, but the way it grinds out the "everything works exactly how it is laid out" never gave me a lot of confidence. Coupled to that is the lack of a system like the SC rules, keywords (I mean 3.x has a lot of 'verbiage', but it is all over the map, you can't tell what it means).

5e definitely is less problematic than 3.x, which I just couldn't play at all really. It has a much more constrained terminology, though less explicit than 4e's. And it has a fairly 4e-like skill system (though mysteriously they messed up some parts, argh!). One thing that I am not happy about is the way it wimped out on the resiliency aspect. Your example of fighting the giants illustrates that pretty well. It is a grim and hard-fought battle against the white dragon and the PCs are pretty drained, but they do bounce back, the fighter digs deep in his reserves and then after the fight the PCs catch their breath and they're set to go on to a more important battle to come.

There WERE consequences, they burned some resources and a lot of HS particularly, but if they're willing to accept some elevated risk going forward they can still proceed and not feel like they're 'gimped' going into the next fight. This is especially conducive to the 'go crazy and act like a big hero' theme of 4e Epic.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Well I am here to tell you that you can run them that way in 5e, works just fine! ;)
I am wanting to say I am sure it does work but the 5e story is apparently supposed to emphasize only spell casters can accomplish extraordinary effects outside of combat these were very much in 4e associated with skills via built in active effects and by skill powers and martial practices and so on. That is just not the 5e story (unless a DM overrides).
 

dave2008

Legend
I am wanting to say I am sure it does work but the 5e story is apparently supposed to emphasize only spell casters can accomplish extraordinary effects outside of combat these were very much in 4e associated with skills via built in active effects and by skill powers and martial practices and so on. That is just not the 5e story (unless a DM overrides).
I personally don't believe in a "5e story," or a "4e story," for that matter.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I personally don't believe in a "5e story," or a "4e story," for that matter.
Well obviously a roleplaying game "story" does exist perhaps only as a default or implication I feel they are merely starting points and perhaps aimed at new players however.... I feel my character having the same highest attribute at level 5 and level 20 in 5e very much implies an element of the story just as in 4e my highest attribute will likely be 6 to maybe 10 higher. (with the latter approaching attribute levels attributed to Dragons and very potent beings in the game)
 


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