Arcanist playtest

[Peraion Graufalke]

IMO zones are a form of control: they force the monsters to scatter.


My Eberron wizard sadly agrees with MrBeens: the Enlarge Spell feat can't enlarge dailies. Did the PC multiclass into sorcerer to get access to Arcane Empowerment?

 

[mneme]

It didn't really matter; you could totally near-solo an encounter with Flaming Sphere alone (certainly, a Genasi Blaster could; hell, at 5th level I was using a fire tome to be able to cast Flaming Sphere twice per day).

This is a big hit to the blaster build, but IMO it's warranted.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Yeah, I saw a wizard in an LFR mod completely solo the final encounter via an Enlarged Stinking Cloud. People keep mentioning that this was all done to save minions, but I think they might be overlooking the fact that encounter-long auto-damage to multiple enemies is effective whether minions are present or not.

Overall, I'm fine with the approach they are taking. Many of these powers were in need of fixing - inasmuch as they were powers that often trumped many other options. Balancing that out does tone down the wizard's daily powers - but the wizard is getting boosts to encounter powers, which seems a decent trade-off. I think in the long run, wizards will remain about as effective, but won't quite have as much ability to just singlehandedly end a fight on their own.

Since when did the Wizard's daily powers need balancing? It seems to me that the only time anyone talks about inbalance is when the designers change something and people try and justify those changes. There were no balance issues with daily powers.

Also, the controller is supposed to do more than just push, pull, and slide. Control of the battlefield is just what that is. The striker and the defender are not always supposed to be the ones that get in the killing blow, that is available for all classes. The purpose of battlefield control is to set up zones to break up enemies that gather together in groups, or bring out enemies that are trying to stay away from the PC's so they don't get killed. The whole entire reason for having damage in the beginning is so enemies won't stand there and take damage, you are exerting your battlefield control abilities and making them move. Also, PC's with enemy moving powers can move those enemies into those zones so the enemies will take damage at the beginning of their turn and have to decide if they want to stand there and take damage, or get out and lose some actions.

Right now with zones being at the end of their turn, they really lose no actions. They can still attack and then move out of the zone.

As I have stated before, a Wizard's zone effects all creatures so enemies can use a PC's own zone against them, so it is not a win win for the Wizard who uses Stinking Cloud of Flaming Sphere. I have had to drop those spells and lose them because a clever creature kept moving my own people into my zones and hurting them. That was two spells wasted because the creature used them against us.

There are no balance issues when it comes to a Wizard's dailies. That's BS, just like it was BS when they tried to say that the Cleric was stepping on the toes of the Wizard. Don't create balance issues where none exist.

 

[Oldtimer]

The whole entire reason for having damage in the beginning is so enemies won't stand there and take damage, you are exerting your battlefield control abilities and making them move. Also, PC's with enemy moving powers can move those enemies into those zones so the enemies will take damage at the beginning of their turn and have to decide if they want to stand there and take damage, or get out and lose some actions.

But even if they get out, they have already taken the damage. So it's not really a choice for them.

Right now with zones being at the end of their turn, they really lose no actions. They can still attack and then move out of the zone.

Now, with damage at end-of-turn, they do have choice. Remain and take damage or get out and avoid it.

I house-ruled Flaming Sphere to end-of-turn damage over a year ago, and I can tell you that it gives the wizards a lot more control over enemy positioning. That's the experience of me and my players from trying this in our games.

 

[MrBeens]

Since when did the Wizard's daily powers need balancing? It seems to me that the only time anyone talks about inbalance is when the designers change something and people try and justify those changes. There were no balance issues with daily powers.

Also, the controller is supposed to do more than just push, pull, and slide. Control of the battlefield is just what that is. The striker and the defender are not always supposed to be the ones that get in the killing blow, that is available for all classes. The purpose of battlefield control is to set up zones to break up enemies that gather together in groups, or bring out enemies that are trying to stay away from the PC's so they don't get killed. The whole entire reason for having damage in the beginning is so enemies won't stand there and take damage, you are exerting your battlefield control abilities and making them move. Also, PC's with enemy moving powers can move those enemies into those zones so the enemies will take damage at the beginning of their turn and have to decide if they want to stand there and take damage, or get out and lose some actions.

Right now with zones being at the end of their turn, they really lose no actions. They can still attack and then move out of the zone.

As I have stated before, a Wizard's zone effects all creatures so enemies can use a PC's own zone against them, so it is not a win win for the Wizard who uses Stinking Cloud of Flaming Sphere. I have had to drop those spells and lose them because a clever creature kept moving my own people into my zones and hurting them. That was two spells wasted because the creature used them against us.

There are no balance issues when it comes to a Wizard's dailies. That's BS, just like it was BS when they tried to say that the Cleric was stepping on the toes of the Wizard. Don't create balance issues where none exist.

Spot on. In most cases leaving the zone is not a loss of any kind to the monster.
If they do stick with the end of turn effects there needs to be an effect on leaving the zone, giving the enemy a choice to make other than not get effected and continue as though the zone is not there.

 

[Oldtimer]

Spot on. In most cases leaving the zone is not a loss of any kind to the monster.

Of course it's a loss. They need to move from that position.

That is what battlefield control is all about. Forcing the enemy out of their chosen positions.

If they do stick with the end of turn effects there needs to be an effect on leaving the zone, giving the enemy a choice to make other than not get effected and continue as though the zone is not there.

This is giving the enemy a choice. Stay put and take damage or give up your position and avoid the damage. It is start-of-turn damage that doesn't give you a choice.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Of course it's a loss. They need to move from that position.

That is what battlefield control is all about. Forcing the enemy out of their chosen positions.


This is giving the enemy a choice. Stay put and take damage or give up your position and avoid the damage. It is start-of-turn damage that doesn't give you a choice.

So what's wrong with an enemy taking damage and then deciding if it wants to take more or move?

This mess about striker damage is bogus unless you are talking about a specific build that has been proven viable by using any class. The Wizard is supposed to to give enemies a taste of damage and then have them decide whether or not they want more, or they can go somewhere else.

 

[Balesir]

I agree with those who say the 'end-of-turn-in-zone' damage model is much more controller-y (note that Warlock zones are still 'start-of-turn-in-zone' damage) and I consider this an overall positive change.

The problem, however, is that it does constitute a nerf to powers that didn't need it. Add onto that that it often seems to fail in its purpose; the damage/effects that happen at the end of the turn need to constitute an actual incentive for the targets to move. If a creature has a choice of move out and take an OA from a defender or stay put and take the zone effect, it should be a really hard choice. Either the damage should be increased for the end-of-turn effect, or statuses should be added. Stinking Cloud that does damage on entry and the same damage plus Daze if ending turn in the cloud might be effective, for example. Difficult terrain zones that Slow or damaging zones that Immobilise might also be handy. The choice would be either accept the area denial or take a really nasty penalty - sounds like good Control, to me.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The Wizard is supposed to to give enemies a taste of damage and then have them decide whether or not they want more, or they can go somewhere else.

Well, the taste of damage is when the enemy is actually attacked by the sphere. That's where the primary damage comes from. Then the enemy on its turn decides whether staying next to the sphere (taking damage again at the end of its turn plus being adjacent to it to possibly get attacked by the sphere again during the wizards next turn), or loses its position by having to move elsewhere.

And let's not forget the fact that if by some chance the enemy is also adjacent to a wizard's ally as well as the sphere... if they choose to move in order to avoid sphere damage, they run the risk of taking Opportunity Attack damage. So they still might occasionally take just as much damage as if they took sphere damage beginning of turn.

 

[Oldtimer]

So what's wrong with an enemy taking damage and then deciding if it wants to take more or move?

Because that decision is not influenced by the presence of the sphere. The damage has already been delivered. Staying or moving away will result in exactly the same amount of damage.

Remember that the sphere is mobile and it only costs a move action to follow the enemy. Basically, with start-of-turn damage, it's ongoing damage that you can't save against.

That's what's wrong with start-of-turn damage. It's a good blaster effect, but a bad controller effect.