How about just leave it the way it was? It was fine to start with and has been fine for the past three years.
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Arcanist playtest
- Thread starter OnlineDM
- Start date
Balesir
Adventurer
So, if next to a fighter and in a zone you are forced to move and risk not moving anyway? That strikes me as way over the top.
Breaking it down to individual actions is likely to add far more confusion than it's worth, I think.
I retain my view from upthread: the damage should be end of turn, but it should be beefed up with damage and/or conditions. Ongoing fire damage (save ends - but no save is possible if adjacent to the sphere) seems good for FS. Granting CA I like for Cloud of Daggers (whenever in the daggers). Dazing (save ends, no save possible if in the zone) at end of turn would fit for Stinking Cloud. Freezing Cloud should maybe be just higher cold damage, with Slowed (save ends). Et cetera.
Hehe wait a sec, you say this now -
But earlier you see a different change that you like and it's -
But earlier you see a different change that you like and it's -
If there has to be a change then that was fine. If I had a choice then I would just leave it the way it was.
re the fighter.
That is just one class out of how many? Making a wizard paired with a fighter a good combo. Fighters being able to stop movement (if they hit) shouldn't influence the whole design of the zone mechanics.
I'll re iterate, there has to be a valid choice for the creatures interaction with the zone. Just making the end of turn damage/effect nastier just makes the move away choice even more of a no brainer.
I stay in the zone X happens, I leave the zone Y happens. What is my best option?
The zone needs to function on it's own without having to rely on outside influences to make it work, but combining it with other outside influences can certainly make it better.
I agree though that making things happen on the first action they do is too fiddly
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Eh, except I am not so sure this is true in the case of a controller. Much like a leader really kinda needs someone to lead a controller needs a battlefield to control. Neither role really works on its own. I'd add that the same can be said for defender. Strikers to some extent can exist in a vacuum, but all other roles really DO rely on teamwork and don't function to any great degree outside of the context of what the other characters in the party are doing.
So, I don't have a problem with FS effectively not being very useful as a power standing alone. Considering that wizards always have a choice of daily powers to select it isn't really that troubling either. If a wizard is going to operate independently then he should really adjust his power selection to reflect that. If the player is worried about needing to adjust on the fly then there are options available to make that happen.
brehobit
Explorer
Not really. In that situation the baddy can just take the damage. It's no worse for them than it is right now.
Balesir
Adventurer
OK, if the damage is low, sure. But if the damage is low enough that it's not really a threat, that's not really control. I would really like to see fair, but effective, control. The best way to that seems to me to be boosted threat at the end of the turn.
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MrGrenadine
I Cast...Brainstorm!
I just started playing a wizard (9th lvl) in my weekly 4e game, so I'm really interested in this conversation, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the benefits of EoT, especially in terms of whether or not the enemies will move.
Maybe a hypothetical will help me:
Say there are 2 enemies 8 squares north of a wizard (arcanist) with an empty square between them. Init is Wizard, then enemies, and on her turn, the wizard drops a FS right in the empty square between the monsters. (Assume that there are other allies and enemies on the battlefield, but these three foes are engaged for the next few rounds.)
[sblock="With SoT damage:"]
One of the targets will take initial damage. The wizard's turn ends.
Enemy A takes damage on his turn, then can attack. It seems plausible that the enemy will move toward the wizard to both avoid taking more damage at the start of his next turn, and to attack the source of the damage. So, enemy A moves 6 squares toward the wizard, angling slightly to come up on the wizard's left side.
Enemy B takes damage on his turn, sees what A is doing, and runs 8 squares toward the wizard's right side to try to flank her.
Wizard's turn. She sustains minor, then moves the FS south 6 squares adjacent to the only enemy she can reach: enemy A. Now the Wizard has a Standard left, if I'm correct, so she can move away from the approaching enemies, attack enemy A with the FS, or use any of her available powers. Lets say she attacks B, and hits, but B is still up.
Enemy A takes damage, then moves to flank the Wizard and attacks.
Enemy B melee attacks as well.
On the Wizard's next turn, she sustains minor, and can move the FS closer to herself. She can still only affect one of the monsters, however, so she moves it adjacent to B, since it seems more heavily wounded.
Enemy A melee attacks.
Enemy B takes damage, which kills it.
And then the battle continues...[/sblock]
[sblock="With EoT damage:"]
One of the targets will take initial damage. The wizard's turn ends.
Enemy A takes NO damage on his turn. It seems plausible that the enemy will move toward the wizard to both avoid taking ANY damage at the end of his turn, and to attack the source of the damage. So, enemy A moves 6 squares toward the wizard, angling slightly to come up on the wizard's left side.
Enemy B takes NO damage on his turn, sees what A is doing, and runs 8 squares toward the wizard's right side to try to flank her.
Wizard's turn. She sustains minor, then moves the FS south 6 squares adjacent to the only enemy she can reach: enemy A. Now the Wizard has a Standard left, if I'm correct, so she can move away from the approaching enemies, attack enemy A with the FS, or use any of her available powers. Lets say she attacks B, and hits, but B is still up.
Enemy A takes NO damage, then moves to flank the Wizard and attacks.
Enemy B melee attacks as well.
On the Wizard's next turn, she sustains minor, and can move the FS closer to herself. She can still only affect one of the monsters, however, so she moves it adjacent to B.
Enemy A melee attacks.
Enemy B shifts, takes NO damage, and attacks the wizard.
And then the battle continues...[/sblock]
Now, it seems to me that all things being equal, both SoT and EoT cause the targets to move to avoid the damage. What I can't see, though, is how the EoT damage will EVER actually come into play if the enemies keep shifting away from it before attacking.
Now, this is a very specific case. Terrain, choke points, other allies nearby to defend against or damage the enemies, ranged attacks, added enemies--all of these things will significantly change the tactics of every creature in the battle.
But I can't (yet) see how EoT is better at controlling, or more effective on the battlefield.
Maybe a hypothetical will help me:
Say there are 2 enemies 8 squares north of a wizard (arcanist) with an empty square between them. Init is Wizard, then enemies, and on her turn, the wizard drops a FS right in the empty square between the monsters. (Assume that there are other allies and enemies on the battlefield, but these three foes are engaged for the next few rounds.)
[sblock="With SoT damage:"]
One of the targets will take initial damage. The wizard's turn ends.
Enemy A takes damage on his turn, then can attack. It seems plausible that the enemy will move toward the wizard to both avoid taking more damage at the start of his next turn, and to attack the source of the damage. So, enemy A moves 6 squares toward the wizard, angling slightly to come up on the wizard's left side.
Enemy B takes damage on his turn, sees what A is doing, and runs 8 squares toward the wizard's right side to try to flank her.
Wizard's turn. She sustains minor, then moves the FS south 6 squares adjacent to the only enemy she can reach: enemy A. Now the Wizard has a Standard left, if I'm correct, so she can move away from the approaching enemies, attack enemy A with the FS, or use any of her available powers. Lets say she attacks B, and hits, but B is still up.
Enemy A takes damage, then moves to flank the Wizard and attacks.
Enemy B melee attacks as well.
On the Wizard's next turn, she sustains minor, and can move the FS closer to herself. She can still only affect one of the monsters, however, so she moves it adjacent to B, since it seems more heavily wounded.
Enemy A melee attacks.
Enemy B takes damage, which kills it.
And then the battle continues...[/sblock]
[sblock="With EoT damage:"]
One of the targets will take initial damage. The wizard's turn ends.
Enemy A takes NO damage on his turn. It seems plausible that the enemy will move toward the wizard to both avoid taking ANY damage at the end of his turn, and to attack the source of the damage. So, enemy A moves 6 squares toward the wizard, angling slightly to come up on the wizard's left side.
Enemy B takes NO damage on his turn, sees what A is doing, and runs 8 squares toward the wizard's right side to try to flank her.
Wizard's turn. She sustains minor, then moves the FS south 6 squares adjacent to the only enemy she can reach: enemy A. Now the Wizard has a Standard left, if I'm correct, so she can move away from the approaching enemies, attack enemy A with the FS, or use any of her available powers. Lets say she attacks B, and hits, but B is still up.
Enemy A takes NO damage, then moves to flank the Wizard and attacks.
Enemy B melee attacks as well.
On the Wizard's next turn, she sustains minor, and can move the FS closer to herself. She can still only affect one of the monsters, however, so she moves it adjacent to B.
Enemy A melee attacks.
Enemy B shifts, takes NO damage, and attacks the wizard.
And then the battle continues...[/sblock]
Now, it seems to me that all things being equal, both SoT and EoT cause the targets to move to avoid the damage. What I can't see, though, is how the EoT damage will EVER actually come into play if the enemies keep shifting away from it before attacking.
Now, this is a very specific case. Terrain, choke points, other allies nearby to defend against or damage the enemies, ranged attacks, added enemies--all of these things will significantly change the tactics of every creature in the battle.
But I can't (yet) see how EoT is better at controlling, or more effective on the battlefield.
