Arcanist playtest

[Raikun]

Trouble there is you're assuming the same tactics with both versions of the spell. Which is understandable. It took a couple of uses before the wizzies in our game started coming up with new tactics for the EoT version.

These included using the sphere one square away from the wizard (with terrain/allies to cover elsewhere) so that enemies approaching to hit the wizard had to end their turn near the sphere to reach him. Stuff like that.

 

[keterys]

Yeah, a battle in which two enemies and a wizard are "solo-ing" each other isn't a very representative case. Have other party members, have a defender. Use other effects. Most wizards don't have many problems with enemies even getting adjacent to them at all, but the wizard chooses the time when it's easy to use the flaming sphere? Seems unlikely.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, with EOT in MrGrenadine's situation what you'd want to do is drop the FS in a spot that is in the direct line between the orcs and the wizard. In other words a spot where they would LIKE to end their turn. Another tactic there might be to ready an action to use the FS attack, though that generally won't be necessary. I guess a cunning player could ready a move action to move the sphere up to an orc too, lol.

The upshot is that you're denying the enemy an area to move into vs denying them the ability to stay in an area they are already leaving. In the SOT example there is zero control, the orcs do exactly what they already wanted to do. In the EOT example there IS control, the wizard is just not understanding how to use it. He CAN stop the enemy from ending its turn in spots he wants them to avoid.

Note that this is the extreme case of FS, BUT it actually is a perfect illustration SOT = all damage, no control. EOT = all control, no damage. Reality will be more grey, but it reveals the nature of the difference perfectly.

 

[Raikun]

Note that this is the extreme case of FS, BUT it actually is a perfect illustration SOT = all damage, no control. EOT = all control, no damage. Reality will be more grey, but it reveals the nature of the difference perfectly.

Yep. It's also important to note on top of that, that Flaming Sphere, even without the extra damage, already does comparable damage to the other level 1 wizard dailies. (2d6 + Int, Same as Phantom Chasm, which has a different control ability, but less than Fountain of Flame which has no other effects).

So, if you just want damage, something like Fountain of Flame is the way to go...if you want better control short term, Phantom Chasm works (immobilizes for a turn), and Flaming Sphere gives lesser control than Chasm but can persist throughout the encounter, with the potential for added damage.

Plus, wizards still have options to force that added damage if they really want to (readying spells to punt them into it after their move actions for one).

Flaming Sphere really is better balanced with this change.

 

[Kinneus]

I guess a cunning player could ready a move action to move the sphere up to an orc too, lol.

That wouldn't be cunning, that'd be stupid. You'd be giving up your standard action to do 1d4+Int mod damage to the enemy. Sure, it's guaranteed to hit, but if you're concerned about auto-damage, Magic Missile is strictly better.

 

[Raikun]

That wouldn't be cunning, that'd be stupid. You'd be giving up your standard action to do 1d4+Int mod damage to the enemy. Sure, it's guaranteed to hit, but if you're concerned about auto-damage, Magic Missile is strictly better.

It's situational though. I've seen a wizard on a turn where the party was positioned so that 3 enemies were likely to end up close, so held an action to move the sphere after their moves to hit all 3. Can't do that with magic missile.

 

[Kinneus]

It's also important to note on top of that, that Flaming Sphere, even without the extra damage, already does comparable damage to the other level 1 wizard dailies. (2d6 + Int, Same as Phantom Chasm, which has a different control ability, but less than Fountain of Flame which has no other effects).

Not a fair comparison at all. Fountain of Flame and Phantom Chasm are area burst powers; they can and should be used to hit more than one target, and therefore both do much, much more damage than Flaming Sphere's initial attack. They just don't do it to a single target.

 

[Kinneus]

It's situational though. I've seen a wizard on a turn where the party was positioned so that 3 enemies were likely to end up close, so held an action to move the sphere after their moves to hit all 3. Can't do that with magic missile.

Problem with that is that monsters don't take their move actions simultaneously. They take their turns one at a time, like everybody else. I suppose it's theoretically possible, but I'm hard-pressed to think of an appropriate trigger for that readied action.

"I ready an action to move the sphere after Orc 3 takes his move action." What if Orc 3 moves first? Then Orc 1 and 2 are free to waltz around it. What if Orc 3 takes more than one move action on his turn? The DM might not even allow such a trigger.

I can see your point, but I honestly can't think of a play situation where readying an action to move the sphere is a good idea.

 

[Raikun]

Yeah, minor mistake there, when we changed Flaming Sphere ages ago to End of Turn, making it do it's 2d6 upon casting to everyone near the sphere was one of our changes to compensate, and we've been playing it like that long enough that I'd forgotten it's original form only did it to one person.

Even so though, I still think it'd be viable, though it'd make the other dailies more appealing in comparison. (Which is still preferable to the old days at our table when Flaming Sphere was the only level 1 daily ever used.)

 

[Raikun]

Problem with that is that monsters don't take their move actions simultaneously. They take their turns one at a time, like everybody else. I suppose it's theoretically possible, but I'm hard-pressed to think of an appropriate trigger for that readied action.

It still works. Making up numbers for ease of demonstration:

Orc 1's initiative count: 21
Wizard's : 14
Orc 2 : 12
Orc 3 : 9

On wizard's turn, he'd just have to use Orc 1's move action as a trigger.

I haven't seen it done often, because it's awful situational, but there are other nice situational uses for it too. It's a movable 9 square area that enemies *really* don't want to go into on their turn.