Are knowledge skills worth it?

[ForceUser]

I find it difficult to make Knowledge skills useful in my campaign. Events are pretty fast-paced, and the only skill that has come up frequently is Knowledge (streetwise/local).

I don't see how to make them relevant to the story without making everything known too fast.

PirateCat, what sort of info did you give out about the planes?

In my campaign, the players tend to think before they leap, so if there's a relevant knowledge associated with a creature, object, or situation, they want to make a roll first to possibly pick up information that might be useful in planning their tactics or in making decisions. I don't typically allow players to reference any books except the PHB during play, so if they want to know the capabilities of an iron golem, they need to make a knowledge (arcana) check because I don't allow them to peek in the Monster Manual. When I present a situation or a history to the group and a player asks "Do I know anything about this?" I have him or her make the relevant knowledge check. My answer to a player with no ranks in the relevant knowledge is usually "No, you don't know anything about this."

Our games tend to be structured such that players in the know succeed more often and with fewer casualties than players who are ignorant, because knowledge checks are one of only a few ways to gain information about the topic of interest. A group that knows that cold iron is required to pass the damage reduction of an evil outsider will be more successful than a group that has no clue.

With regard to background information such as planar knowledge, what I do is create a DM master copy of all the information that makes my cosmology and its denizens unique. A player with 5 ranks in the skill gets a handout derived from the master copy. albeit with only basic information on it (the names of the major planes, the essential structure of the cosmology, and the planar terminology specific to the campaign) as well as some nuts and bolts stuff of note (5 ranks in knowledge [cosmology] gains a character access to the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells in Manual of the Planes, for instance). The idea is that players who want to learn more background information will buy more ranks in the skill, and get more and more detailed handouts. It's a lot of work, but it can be rewarding when a player uses that information to enhances the roleplaying ot to make decisions in-game.

 

[iwatt]

There are no useles skills, just useless DMs.....

what I mean is that if you have a PC who has significantly invested in craft (basketweaving), it behoofs you, as the DM, to give some opportunity for that investment to shine.

If the PCs invest heavily in Jump/Balance/Climb, I tend to use more environments were the use of these skill is appropriate.

If someone has taken 10 ranks in forgery, I leave a lot of documents lying around for him to learn how to forge.

If someone has taken 10 ranks in use rope, I break out my copy of the BoEF and ....

 

[Davelozzi]

Sorry, Toe, but I have to agree with the chorus here. I think Knowledge skills are tremendously useful, probably next after Listen, Spot, and Search. I ask for Knowledge checks fairly frequently, and players use them all the time to get info on various creatures as detailed in the 3.5 version of the skill. Like Alhazred, I sometimes let them take an extra specialty, and give a bonus if applicable.

"Knowledge will always rule...and make you live large in a world of fools."

 

[PaulGreystoke]

Put me in the chorus singing the praise of knowledge skills. They really flesh out a character & contribute to the campaign. The real problem we found was that the typical character simply doesn't have enough SPs to spend on the skills necessary to fill out his background - even a Human character with a decent INT score.

Our solution was to grant every character 2 extra SPs a level (x4 @ 1st) that can only be spent on background skills - Knowledges, Professions, Crafts, & Languages. Then the players don't have to feel guilty about on spending SPs on skills that may only be occasionally useful rather than on those skills most regularly & directly useful to adventuring. Thus the characters can spend their normal SPs on useful adventuring skills while still having the background skills that fit their conception. Since almost every player in our game loves skills, this has worked out well for us. YMMV.

 

[ivocaliban]

Our solution was to grant every character 2 extra SPs a level (x4 @ 1st) that can only be spent on background skills - Knowledges, Professions, Crafts, & Languages. Then the players don't have to feel guilty about on spending SPs on skills that may only be occasionally useful rather than on those skills most regularly & directly useful to adventuring. Thus the characters can spend their normal SPs on useful adventuring skills while still having the background skills that fit their conception. Since almost every player in our game loves skills, this has worked out well for us. YMMV.

I rather like that idea, actually. Might bring that into play in my next campaign.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think some of the knowledges are useful. I think K:Architecture and engineering, K:local, k:royalty and nobility and k:geography are largely useless, which is a shame. K:local and k:geography are already covered by gather information and survival. K:royalty and nobility is covered by diplomacy and K:architecture is probably covered by some sort of craft skill - regardless, it gives no actual mechanical benefits.

Now - this is applies for the usual campaign. However I think even in a specialised campaign, you're still probably only going to see an occasional situation bonus out of any of these. I suppose that a particularly diligent and lenient DM could possibly make them useful, but somehow I doubt it.

I think it behooves a party to have the knowledge skills available. I think it's a very good idea to make sure that each knowledge skill (of arcana, religion, nature, planes and dungeoneering) is owned by at least one member of the party.

Finally, I think the following changes should probably be made to the various knowledge skills:
Knowledge skills should identify appropriate creatures, based on context rather than classification. Why is a mind flayer identified with K:dungeoneering? An ogre mage with K:Nature? A retreiver with K:arcana? A doppleganger with K:nature? K:religion can't identify an angel or a devil?
So - when you think of a monster, simply pick the most appropriate skill, and allow skill overlaps. K:nature should still ID an ogre mage, but so should K:arcana. K:urban (see below) should be able to identify ghouls, vampires, dopplegangers etc. K: religion should probably be able to identify some of the outsiders (specifically those allied and opposed with the religion in question).

Change the various knowledges so they are location based. Combine K:royalty and nobility, K:architecture and engineering and K:Local into K:Urban. Drop K:Geography - just assume that people know the names of various kingdoms.

Add the knowledges to the lists of every class.

I think these changes will add a lot of value to the knowledge skills, and encourage their use by all parties.

 

[KnowTheToe]

Sorry, Toe, but I have to agree with the chorus here. I think Knowledge skills are tremendously useful, probably next after Listen, Spot, and Search.

Actually, I don't think there is a huge concensus. Yes we all like using knowledge, my beef is 10 different knowledge skills is too diverse and would be better served by lowering the number of availble knowledge skills from 10 to 4-5.

1. Arcana/psionic/magic
2. Religion
3. Nature
4. Lore
5. Planes

I think those could cover just about anything. You can use craft/profession skills for specific application if the DM feels it is required.

Profession soldier could cover tactics, supply lines, recruiting & the like - character flavor more than typical game use

Profession Engineer - Understanding design, basic physics - Again, not used often in games, but a character can use it instead of knowledge

You could make many specific knowledges using profession/craft, but these would probably see less game play.


After reading through this thread, I have read lots of great ideas and applications

 

[Davelozzi]

Yes we all like using knowledge, my beef is 10 different knowledge skills is too diverse and would be better served by lowering the number of availble knowledge skills from 10 to 4-5.

I guess I could see that. We don't use much architecture/engineering, geogrpahy, or local knowledge, but the others seem to come up enough. But still, my preference would be to leave them in there as options even if they're not used.

The exception is knowledge local, I'd prefer to ignore that one and just give bonus to other knowledge checks if they relate to an area that a character grew up in or spent a good portion of his/her life. In particular this could apply for geography, history, religion, and nobility/royalty, and maybe sometimes nature or architectre/engineering.

 

[scourger]

The best success I've had with knowledge skills was in a game I ran that had just 1 or 2 skills for the PCs: one for the current times and 1 for the ancient times. I tied all their handouts, including maps, to the number of ranks they took in those skills adjusted for their origin. It took a while for them to figure out that they had different information, too.

 

[ivocaliban]

I like the Knowledge skills and put them to good use in my campaign. I'm not bothered so much by those in the PHB, but the points get really thin if you use supplemental material outside of WotC, because almost every one I have tacks on new skills (often at least one Knowledge skill). I try and combine as many as I can and sometimes all it takes is a different name.

For instance, in Rokugan there exists Knowledge (Etiquette)...which in my mind encompasses and goes beyond Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) within this setting, at least. The nice thing about it is the synergy bonus remains the same for both (+2 Diplomacy). Rokugan offers about 10 new Knowledge skills which really spreads the resources out, so it's important to try and merge as many as possible.