D&D 5E Armor in D&DNext

[ArmoredSaint]

Just out of interest and on the topic of realism, how hard is it to deliver a wound with a sword or other weapon against someone wearing full plate in real life. Do you absolutely have to find a gap in the plate or can you actually part the steel with conventional weapons?

A few passages and notes from period accounts of tournaments, etc.

A Commonplace Book: Armor vs. Muscle

A Commonplace Book: Armor vs. Weapons

Not surprisingly, your best bet is a weapon that concentrates a lot of force upon a small point. Picks and such. The likelihood of cutting through even thin steel enough to inflict a deadly wound with an edged instrument like a sword--even a big sword--is pretty slim. Thus, anti-armour weapons have always been things like picks or flanged maces.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

For some people, yes, it really is. If your character concept is a lightly armoured duellist, its hard to pull that off if its intrinsic inferior to wearing heavy plate.

Now, the answer to that may well be to tell those people they need to play another game or just suck it up, but I think we should at least try to explore if its possible to make the light armoured fighter concept work in D&D first.

I suppose that it depends on how important the realities of a setting are to character concept. To me, they're paramount, and I have a difficult time imagining any other way, which isn't to say other ways are wrong.

See, a lightly armored duelist is equipped and trained for duels—sport combat against other lightly armored men. It's not the best skillset or equipment for fighting in an army, or hunting a bear, or spelunking in monster filled caves. I figure that a duelist, a ranger, and a knight would all adjust their equipment for their current needs.

Of course, doing this well requires a somewhat higher level of detail in the armor rules than we have.

 

[variant]

For some people, yes, it really is. If your character concept is a lightly armoured duellist, its hard to pull that off if its intrinsic inferior to wearing heavy plate.

Now, the answer to that may well be to tell those people they need to play another game or just suck it up, but I think we should at least try to explore if its possible to make the light armoured fighter concept work in D&D first.

Yet there is zero reason a lightly armored duelist should have equal defense to a heavily armored warrior. The heavily armor warrior is paying for their defense in gold, weight, and class ability they have obtained to wear it. When someone wears full plate that is 50lb less they can carry and 1500 gold less they have to spend on other stuff.

 

[jadrax]

I suppose that it depends on how important the realities of a setting are to character concept. To me, they're paramount, and I have a difficult time imagining any other way, which isn't to say other ways are wrong.

Yet there is zero reason a lightly armored duelist should have equal defense to a heavily armored warrior. The heavily armor warrior is paying for their defense in gold, weight, and class ability they have obtained to wear it. When someone wears full plate that is 50lb less they can carry and 1500 gold less they have to spend on other stuff.

I think this comes down to the core design issue of 5th edition, which is keeping it so that any past play style is legitimate under this rule set. WotC have to basically find a way of saying people who want a a world driven by a semi realistic ruleset can also integrate people who want the world balanced by what they think is cool.

Its going to be... interesting.

 

[Stalker0]

Yet there is zero reason a lightly armored duelist should have equal defense to a heavily armored warrior.

Also bear in mind that the duelist no longer needs to pay a feat for weapon finnesse and gets to use dex for attack and damage, so he isn't paying nearly as much as he used to.

 

[variant]

Also bear in mind that the duelist no longer needs to pay a feat for weapon finnesse and gets to use dex for attack and damage, so he isn't paying nearly as much as he used to.

Also, I would assume there would be a swashbuckling theme or background where they would get benefit from wearing light armor. Heavy armor doesn't need arbitrarily gimped to make a finesse fighter to become a viable option.

 

[Derren]

Just out of interest and on the topic of realism, how hard is it to deliver a wound with a sword or other weapon against someone wearing full plate in real life. Do you absolutely have to find a gap in the plate or can you actually part the steel with conventional weapons?

With swords you have to find a gap in the armor as the force of the blow is distributed over a too large area to pierce armor.
See here (although that is non-lethal duelist fighting. Part 5 & 6 shows gap finding)
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S_Q3CGqZmg&feature=related]Gladiatoria : Part 1/6 : Swordfight in Armour : Hammaborg - YouTube[/ame]

As you can see, fighting someone with plate armor with a sword does not look like any sword fighting technique we commonly associate with swords.

There were special weapons designed to defeat armor either by piercing them with a small hook like the Polaxe or other such weapons (picks, pikes, halberds, hook hammers, etc.) or by crushing the armor and possibly even the bone underneath it (maces). All of those weapons are vastly underrepresented in D&D.


About cost as balancing factor, why is that bad?
Its not as if earlier editions (3 and 4) did not use cost to balance magical items. And many other games use cost as part of the balance, too.
Back to the topic, I am also against unarmored, lightly armored guys having the same, or even comparable, AC than people in heavy armor. Light armor has some advantages (cheaper, can be worn for longer/in more situations, more silent, unrestricted movement,...) and thus should have penalties to AC (and not too small. Imo, wearing light or no armor should be a big risk when standing on the front line).

 

[Stalker0]

About cost as balancing factor, why is that bad?
Its not as if earlier editions (3 and 4) did not use cost to balance magical items.

And their balancing mechanics failed.

In 3e, the ability to stock on potions, scrolls, wands, and x/day items gave me an arsenal of power to draw from just from my money.

4e attempted to introduce even more balancing mechanics, such as the rule that you can only use magic item abilities x/day, exactly because cost wasn't working.


Cost doesn't "balance" magic items, it "levels" magic items. If for example, you wanted a game where the whole party started in leather, but by the 20th level were all in full plate, then cost could potentially work.

but if you want a game where some are in plate and some still in leather....cost won't do the job.

 

[Derren]

but if you want a game where some are in plate and some still in leather....cost won't do the job.

That is not a problem with cost as balancing factor but with its implementation in D&D. In many other PnPs that works, especially as there the out of combat disadvantages of armor play a bigger role.
But those games focus more on the RPG part while D&D focuses nearly only on tactical combat.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

A different, slightly more complex take on armor

Each type of armor has an encumbrance score. When wearing armor, compare the character's strength score to the armor's encumbrance, and use the following chart to determine results:

[B]Strength is...                    Character...[/B]
2 or more below encumbrance       is not proficient with armor
below encumbrance                 has speed reduced by 5 feet
equal to or above encumbrance     adds half Dex mod to AC
2 or more above encumbrance       adds Dex mod to AC


[B]Armor                Bonus  Encumbrance  Price[/B]

No Armor             10     -            -

[I]# Light #[/I]
Leather              12     6            10 gp
Monster Hide         13     6            50 gp
Chain Shirt          13     8            100 gp
Mithral Chain Shirt  15     7            2500 gp

[I]# Medium #[/I]
Brigandine           13     10           20 gp
Scale                14     12           50 gp
Breastplate          14     10           400 gp
Dragon Scale         16     12           5000 gp

[I]# Heavy #[/I]
Chainmail            15     14           150 gp
Splinted Mail        16     15           500 gp
Plate                17     16           1500 gp
Mithral Chainmail    17     13           4000 gp
Adamantine Plate     18     16           15,000 gp

I'm sure it has problems that need to be ironed out. But it's a start.