Armour Dilemma: Am I Wrong Here?

[Drezden327]

Fusangite,

I'm curious, from all of your posts, we never get a sense of what actually happened. Were the players who did show up (along with the Duke) actually able to defeat the Vampires?? Did the battle take place and what were the results?? Since this tread is now 5 pages long, I'm sure some people (me) are curious.

Drezden

 

[Nail]

FWIW:

#1) The player that was verbally abusive was wrong for being abusive (and he is a verifiable cry-baby). Too bad it looks like you will be unable to get rid of him, as his significant other also plays.

#2) Designing a scenario in which some of the PCs powers are reduced or nullified is fine - even fun! As long as it's used sparingly. It looks like that's the case here. (And preventing some from wearing armor is hardly "nullifying" the PC's abilities!)

#3) Following the rules consistantly is almost always the right way to do things. It reinforces the "real" feeling of the game-world, and reduces problems with subjective interpretation. Exceptions should be as rare as possible, thoroughly discussed, and conform to the reasonable expectations of all. {EDIT} I completely agree with your interpretation of the armor donning time.

#4) I respectfully disagree with your NPC time line, etc. The whole encounter (including the "gathering, herding, and turning") happened way too quickly, even within the rules as written. I'd be happy to expound upon this if you wish. This point is really a "DM style" point, so it's probably not germaine to the thread.

#5) You (the DM) spent hours going over every nuance of a plan. The players probably spent about 5 minutes thinking through their response. Is it any wonder they flubbed up?

#6) Sounds like the only one who really has a problem with this encounter is the cry-baby. Don't coddle him; you might lose a better player while you do.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ?

You've had every logical reason to let those people get their armor on, but you decided not to. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, just stop claiming that your hands were tied...

Exactly what logical reasons were those? I must have missed them amongst all the emotional reasons.

 

[fusangite]

In response to Centaur,

3) if You have a habit of creating encounters in which the players with the heavy armor are prevented from using It, then maybe, just maybe the player has a point that you should listen to. Being denied your hard earned gear on a regular basis can be quite anoying.

I wouldn't expect anyone to wade through the nigh-200 posts but no, this had never been a regular thing.

4) Consider making a Armor enhancement effect (say at +1 or +2) that gives the "Captain Power Effect". If the player really has a problem with not wearing his armor, he can pay for the enhancement at the local Enchanters shop.

Some of the armoured characters also have deflection bonus and dex-enhancing magic items of the type to which you refer.

In response to Drezden327,

The vampires were about 50% successful. They were able to kill and begin turning 70 of the 140 guards. Basically what happened was that the players generally won on one side of the building but the time it took for them to dispel all the walls and mind control spells, the vampires on the other size were left unmolested and were able to pull off most of their plan.

The vampires still aren't defeated but they took a very severe blow from the recently-reunified party in the following episode who stormed into the tower after them once the armoured characters arrived. They were able to destroy all the coffins and defeat the vampires who hadn't been defeated outside in the previous episode.

Episode 19: Battle outside the tower; 2 vampires, a few spawn are defeated; 70 troops are taken into the tower; 45 survive; 20 are killed by the duke; 5 are killed but don't get taken into the tower.
Episode 20: Armoured characters arrive and storm the tower with the advance party. They defeat all remaining spawn, kill another 4 vampires, destroy all coffins. The remaining vampires escape, coffin-less to their backup lair where a bunch of the vampires (and the master vampire) are still holed-up. The duke returns with his troops and seizes the tower from the characters. Priests arrive (as per request of the bard to the soldiers she freed to summon the city's priests). The priests begin performing rituals to prevent the 70 guards' corpses from rising as vampires.
Episode 21: The characters and the duke make a speech about teamwork. They then discover the duke is breaching his agreement with them to leave the tower intact until the commissioners from the Guild of the Magi arrive. After discovering and attacking his agent who is in the process of stealing scrolls, the characters spontaneously hatch a plan to assassinate the duke; they spend the rest of the episode pulling off the ambush and killing him. (With great ingenuity I might add -- I had not planned for the duke to die and was completely surprised by their plan which involved them using up a powerful magic item they'd been holding in reserve for the past 18 episodes (9 months of playing time).

In response to Nail,

Thanks for your very sensible post.

#4) I respectfully disagree with your NPC time line, etc. The whole encounter (including the "gathering, herding, and turning") happened way too quickly, even within the rules as written. I'd be happy to expound upon this if you wish. This point is really a "DM style" point, so it's probably not germaine to the thread.

I'd be really appreciative of your critique of the timeline. However, I'm wondering if I could get that from you via e-mail so that this thread doesn't continue its morph into a discussion about the specifics of my strategy for letting the characters make up for lost personnel.

#5) You (the DM) spent hours going over every nuance of a plan. The players probably spent about 5 minutes thinking through their response. Is it any wonder they flubbed up?

I just figured they would all come at the start or they would all come after the tanks put their armour on -- I planned for both eventualities. I just didn't figure they would split in quite the way they did.

#6) Sounds like the only one who really has a problem with this encounter is the cry-baby. Don't coddle him; you might lose a better player while you do.

Well, after everyone's responses, I've basically come to that decision. He was very nice last game -- as it the pattern after he has one of his blow-ups.

 

[Sanackranib]

rules

the game must have CONSISTANT rules to make the suspension of disbelief possible

 

[Nail]

An email or separate thread for "tactics and timing" sounds like a plan. I'm sure I'd learn a great deal.

Well, after everyone's responses, I've basically come to that decision. He was very nice last game -- as it the pattern after he has one of his blow-ups.

A few years ago, after college, I had a player like this. Some sessions she was considerate, some sessions she .....wasn't. I found that by making sure her character had opportunities to shine each session....she got worse, especially when she missed those opportunities.

Doh.

 

[Scarbonac]

1) The situation was simply set up to screw the players; not in and of itself a bad idea, but I certainly wouldn't try and stage the nigh-climactic battles of my campaign while everyone's PC is still digging sleep out of their eyes and wearing, at best, their nightshirts.


2) The timeframe is completely out of whack. Completely. It took less time to rouse the Duke and explain the situation and get him moving than it did for three characters to don their armor?

And why wasn't the PC who flew over the Duke's walls unannounced in the middle of the night filled with arrows/crossbow bolts?



3) The rules are being applied inconsistently -- Super-Duke got there in time to help, after being roused from his slumbers/reverie, but the PCs who decided to put on their armor couldn't?

Uh-huh.



4) And what was the explosion all about? It strikes me that it was simply to announce to the PCs, ''Time to get up! Time to die!''


5) If there were 140 troops surrounding the tower, why weren't there a contingent of wizards/sorcerers and clerics stationed there with them to provide backup?

Or are the PCs the only spellcasters in town, besides the vampires and the Duke ?



6) The player lost his temper; it happens. I've lost my temper a few times in the last 22 years over in-game events, and so have some of my players, but we give each other a certain amount of leeway because we're friends; I wouldn't put up with it myself from a casual acquaintance or a stranger, and would hold my temper better with someone I don't know too well..

The player, for all of that, sounds like a jerk; if he isn't a friend, I'd get rid of him.


But he has a point about how you played the scenario out.

 

[Nail]

BTW: Is there rules in 3e for determining how long it takes to wake up and reach STATUS: BATTLE READY?

 

[fusangite]

And why wasn't the PC who flew over the Duke's walls unannounced in the middle of the night filled with arrows/crossbow bolts?

The ducal palace is not separately walled from the city. You enter the building directly from the street. Just like Robert Mugabe's house.

3) The rules are being applied inconsistently -- Super-Duke got there in time to help, after being roused from his slumbers/reverie, but the PCs who decided to put on their armor couldn't?

Please tell me, complete with page reference, which rules I violated by allowing the duke to get to the combat. I don't want a vague statement about "reality" -- I want a specific citation of a rule about how long things take.

4) And what was the explosion all about? It strikes me that it was simply to announce to the PCs, ''Time to get up! Time to die!''

Well, if you were expecting your city to be attacked by magic-using vampires and a loud evocation went off in the middle of the night, I guess you'd... turn over and go back to sleep.

5) If there were 140 troops surrounding the tower, why weren't there a contingent of wizards/sorcerers and clerics stationed there with them to provide backup?

Thanks for bringing this up. Actually, the darkness god's clergy had offered to provide said contingent. It didn't seem to occur to anyone that the Neutral Evil God of the Undead might betray the troops and side with the vampires... This was another sign the players perhaps could have seen this coming. So, the dozen clerics manning the walls just left, unmolested, as soon as the vampires started the attack.

Due clever manipulations of the city's politics (exploiting alliances, debts, corruption, the byzantine civic political system), the cult was able to manoevre its members into this role. I reminded the characters of this fact every episode for the previous three episodes but I guess they just didn't take in the significance of the information.

In fact, the remaining vampires are hiding in this god's temple right now. But this possibility hasn't occurred to the players yet.

 

[mmu1]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ?

Exactly what logical reasons were those? I must have missed them amongst all the emotional reasons.

Here it is, and it's a hard one: If some of the party members have the time to get up, investigate an explosion, decide what to do, go into the ducal palace, get past the guards, talk to the duke, and get back into a massive combat with some kind of idea of what's going on, then the other members of the party ought to have two minutes to put on armor.

The issue here is the talking, deciding and planning, which apparently took place in zero or near-zero time, to make things add up.

If you don't have anything to add besides taking a swipe at someone, just stick to being anal in the Rules forum, it seemed to work for you...