(ASoI&F - spoilers) Why the hatred for Stannis Baratheon?

[King_Stannis]

I have visited the "Ring of Ice and Fire" boards, dedicated to Martin's series, and I've noticed a common theme. Many of the members over there simply DESPISE the character of Stannis Baratheon. Absolutely hate him. They immediately point out that he was willing to sacrafice his own blood - his nephew, I believe it was - in order to gain the throne. They fail to see that he did not want to kill the boy, and if he did it was because the fate of Westeros depended upon him gaining the throne.

Yeah, yeah, I know about Melisandre. That's a confusing issue. He listens to her council because she has pretty much been spot-on with her predictions. I am convinced that he had no idea about the SHADOW that she birthed to cap his brother.

Let's not forget that he saved the Night Watch and the northern lands, too.

This guy gets dumped on and easily dismissed as a minor pretender to the Iron Throne. He may not be the one sitting on it at the end, but I wouldn't be surprised if A) he's one of the last ones standing; or B) he's still alive at the end.

What say you all? Stannis hater? Stannis defender? Somewhere in the middle? What do you think will come of him? What are some of his redeeming/damning features and actions?

Discuss!

 

[Dr Midnight]

I'm somewhere in the middle... he's an intolerable prick who's spitting on the gods just to advance his status in life, but he's not a bad man.

His fool gives me the skin-crawlies. I say he's evil for letting Patchface hang around with his daughter.

 

[King_Stannis]

I'm somewhere in the middle... he's an intolerable prick who's spitting on the gods just to advance his status in life, but he's not a bad man. ...

See, I kind of disagree with that. He feels he was robbed of the throne that was rightfully his. Turns out, he's right. Ned Stark thought so, the laws of succession would seem to think so, too.

After that, when he got hooked up with Melisandre, he then believes (for better or worse) that he HAS to win the throne in order for the world to survive.

You kind of make it look like he has all of this personal ambition, like his brother Renly did, but I don't see it. I see a man who follows the letter of the law. When that gets torn up, he follows the red witch - who has never been wrong to him. He wants the throne not because he craves power, but because A) It rightfully belongs to him; and B) He must have it to save Westeros.

Those are two pretty strong reasons, Doc.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

I think he is the best example of LN in the book, but with slight evil tendencies. His punishment of men who save his life is pretty harsh. I look forward to seeing where he goes in the future books, the end of the last one left him at a surprising situation.

SD

 

[loxmyth]

I come in on the side of those who despise Stannis.

I think it's because, as Sagan points out, that he is more concerned with law than compassion. When Doc Midnight says he spits on the gods to advance his status, he's correct. He converted away from the seven only because he thought it might be pragmatic to do so.

I think the part that bothers me the most is that it is a personal thing for him, though he says it's just the law. We see him spend too much time whining about the crown which is rightly his before we see him actually doing something about it.

The most telling point is that Stannis knew of Cersei's infidelity, and instead of going forward with his claims, he disappears back to Dragonstone, leaving Ned Stark high and dry. Maybe if he hadn't been complaining so much about his brother loving Stark more than him, he might have had the power to stop this thing before it even started.

To me, it's maddening for him to declare that he's the rightful heir after the fact, and then hate every other guy on the block for also claiming their own kingdoms. A human and reasonable reaction, yes. Endearing, no.

 

[Jeremy]

I approve of Stannis. He's got this terrible weight on him and he's always played with a losing hand. And he's getting sucked dry by a sorceress who's gonna ditch him when she realizes she's backing the wrong guy.

He's always trying to do the greatest good for the greatest number of people. And I personally think he's a lot better equipped to handle the cleansing of the corruption of Westeros then any of the other potential kings.

His would be a short, but profitable reign. Short because he is too inflexible to survive for long though his hardness would allow him to root out some serious problems with some scheming bastichs before he was offed.

The thing that confirmed his character for me, besides finding out how much Littlefinger had been behind, was that he DID answer the call of the North, for the reason I believe of duty.

He feels the world is going to be over run by darkness as his sorceress keeps telling him, and that he's gotta do everything he can to stop it, including taking the iron throne by force, forcing people to work together, and doing whatever else it takes.

That's a hard, sad way to live, but I like him for it.

I think because he's been set up as direct opposite of Tyrion so much, that the great vocal majority of people despise him because they have been manipulated into despising him. But that's just my opinion.

 

[King_Stannis]

I come in on the side of those who despise Stannis.

I think it's because, as Sagan points out, that he is more concerned with law than compassion. When Doc Midnight says he spits on the gods to advance his status, he's correct. He converted away from the seven only because he thought it might be pragmatic to do so.

I think the part that bothers me the most is that it is a personal thing for him, though he says it's just the law. We see him spend too much time whining about the crown which is rightly his before we see him actually doing something about it.

The most telling point is that Stannis knew of Cersei's infidelity, and instead of going forward with his claims, he disappears back to Dragonstone, leaving Ned Stark high and dry. Maybe if he hadn't been complaining so much about his brother loving Stark more than him, he might have had the power to stop this thing before it even started.

To me, it's maddening for him to declare that he's the rightful heir after the fact, and then hate every other guy on the block for also claiming their own kingdoms. A human and reasonable reaction, yes. Endearing, no.

Stannis converted from the 7 Gods because Melisandre convinced him he is Azar-???? reborn. Again, in his view, she’s never been wrong.

I disagree that it’s a “personal” thing with him. You say he spends too much time whining, but he’s a cautious man – not likely to make a reckless charge in. He is being deliberate, which I think you are construing as whining. He may whine a little, but if you are going to whine about something, being screwed out of your kingship is right up there.

Stannis knew of Cersei’s infidelity all right. And he knew if he presented it, he would have probably been executed or laughed out of the kingdom. He had no idea, to my recollection, at the time he left, that anyone other than Jon Arryn had also figured it out.

Again, the throne IS his by law. People just want to say “Oh, that Stannis, he’s just got a stick in his butt about laws, doesn’t he? He should just stand aside….”. The thing to ask yourself is, are there going to be laws of succession or aren’t there? By casually dismissing them you invite bloodshed EVERY time a ruler perishes. Stannis is the rightful ruler of Westeros end-of-story.

What’s really galling are the people who just love Jaime Lannister after book 3, and can’t say enough good about him. Stannis was going to sacrifice his nephew in order to SAVE THE WORLD, and even then he resisted and resisted because it was something he did not want to do. Jamie Lannister tries to kill a 7 year-old kid in one of the worst ways possible to keep an incestuous affair with his sister from being discovered. He almost murdered a 7 year-old boy so he could keep poking his own sister!

Yeah, Stannis is the real monster.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

What’s really galling are the people who just love Jaime Lannister after book 3, and can’t say enough good about him.

I can't agree enough about that- I find it sickening people find him a sympathetic character. (Reminds me why I don't like talking books with other people..)

His misfortunes are well deserved.

I am afraid to see the reaction when his sister becomes a p.o.v. character in the next book. ugh.

SD

 

[Jeremy]

BTW, thanks for the link to that quiz. That was fun.

 

[loxmyth]

Hey don't get me wrong, I agree that the whole Jaime thing is annoying. I really despise him too. I just think Martin has made Jaime a lot more sympathetic than Stannis. I'm sure Jeremy's right, that Martin wants us to dislike Stannis and that may be partially why.

I won't go into the whining too much because that is just the impression I get of him.

Stannis knew of Cersei’s infidelity all right. And he knew if he presented it, he would have probably been executed or laughed out of the kingdom. He had no idea, to my recollection, at the time he left, that anyone other than Jon Arryn had also figured it out

But he should have known that Ned would have backed him. Both Ned and Stannis are very lawful people... the difference was that Ned was tempered with compassion. But he had no problem hacking off the head of a deserter once he decided that was what needed doing. I truly believe Ned would have backed Stannis. The fact that Stannis was bitter that Robert liked Ned over him really colours his responses to me.

I haven't read the books in a while either, so I grant that my recollections may be hazy (I intend to remedy that!). But I'm pretty sure that Stannis dragged his feet on is whole claim for the throne. In this time, Ned is killed, word gets back to the North so that Robb can be crowned, and so on.

Again, the throne IS his by law. People just want to say “Oh, that Stannis, he’s just got a stick in his butt about laws, doesn’t he? He should just stand aside….”. The thing to ask yourself is, are there going to be laws of succession or aren’t there? By casually dismissing them you invite bloodshed EVERY time a ruler perishes. Stannis is the rightful ruler of Westeros end-of-story.

Well technically, Dany is. But I understand your point. But really, should he have been surprised at the response he received to his claim? This is after Ned and all his people at court are dead, so Stannis is still the only one who knows that Jeoffrey is not the rightful heir! Why should his declaration now, after the fact move anyone more than it did before?

Of course, this is the bind he's in. He knows he's the rightful heir, but nobody else does, and his comments seem self-serving at best to the majority of bystanders. The problem is that he doesn't appreciate the irony of it. He states that Robb is one of the Kings that he'll assassinate, just because he's crowned himself king in the North. Why couldn't he look at it from Robb's point of view? That Jeoffery Baratheon, the rightful king, is an evil sadistic bastard that wrongfully had Robb's father killed, and now his scheming uncle has come out of nowhere with allegations that he's really the king!

Stannis converted from the 7 Gods because Melisandre convinced him he is Azar-???? reborn. Again, in his view, she’s never been wron

Stannis himself basically says, "You use a tool as long as it's useful. The seven are no longer as useful as the Red God." And this wouldn't really be much of a problem if he didn't force his men to all convert or die.

I'm fairly sure Stannis knows he's not a reincarnation of this Azar guy. He needs to fake the fire on his sword. Heck, even Beric Dondarrion the lightning lord knows that trick! But it serves his purposes to pretend he is. He's basically a ends justifies the means type.

Again, don't misunderstand me. I guess saying that I despise him is a little strong; there is very little about most of the characters in the series that I like or does not frustrate me. But I see him as far from the noble character you see him as.