(ASoI&F - spoilers) Why the hatred for Stannis Baratheon?

[King_Stannis]

He's always trying to do the greatest good for the greatest number of people. And I personally think he's a lot better equipped to handle the cleansing of the corruption of Westeros then any of the other potential kings.

His would be a short, but profitable reign. Short because he is too inflexible to survive for long though his hardness would allow him to root out some serious problems with some scheming bastichs before he was offed.

The thing that confirmed his character for me, besides finding out how much Littlefinger had been behind, was that he DID answer the call of the North, for the reason I believe of duty.

He feels the world is going to be over run by darkness as his sorceress keeps telling him, and that he's gotta do everything he can to stop it, including taking the iron throne by force, forcing people to work together, and doing whatever else it takes.

That's a hard, sad way to live, but I like him for it.

I think because he's been set up as direct opposite of Tyrion so much, that the great vocal majority of people despise him because they have been manipulated into despising him. But that's just my opinion.

I think all of that is pretty much spot-on. I feel that deep down he is trying to do the most good for the most people, too. And you're probably right about his reign being a short but profitable one. I never said Stannis would be a great king, but he at least deserves the chance.

 

[King_Stannis]

But he should have known that Ned would have backed him. Both Ned and Stannis are very lawful people... the difference was that Ned was tempered with compassion. But he had no problem hacking off the head of a deserter once he decided that was what needed doing. I truly believe Ned would have backed Stannis. The fact that Stannis was bitter that Robert liked Ned over him really colours his responses to me.

.....Again, don't misunderstand me. I guess saying that I despise him is a little strong; there is very little about most of the characters in the series that I like or does not frustrate me. But I see him as far from the noble character you see him as.

Fair enough, and thanks for participating and clarifying, loxmyth.

I'll say this about the one point - Stannis really didn't know Ned Stark. It's easy for us to say in hindsight that he would have supported Stannis because we know he DID support Stannis after finding it out. But there was no way for Stannis to know, and what reason would he have to trust Ned - his brother's best friend.

As for Stannis being bitter about his brother liking Stark better, that is a window to his humanity. Lots of people (not saying you) want to think he lives ONLY for laws and nothing more. But he is genuinely hurt by Robert's affection for Ned, just as he was genuinely hurt his other brother would attempt to jump his rightful claim to the throne.

For some enlightenment, pick up "Clash of Kings" again, and read the part after Renly is done-in by the Shadow. There is a scene after, when Stannis is riding and asking the Onion Knight his opinions. At the beginning of that scene he starts telling Davos about how, only a day before when they rode out to meet each other, his brother reached into his coat for a peach. Stannis thought it was a weapon and drew his own, but his brother just laughed and offered him a bite of the peach (symbolic?). Stannis said something to the effect "Only my brother could vex me with a piece of fruit. But I loved him, Davos, despite his treason. And I'll go to my grave thinking of that peach".

It's one of the most well written parts of the series that many people simply ignore due to their blind hatred of Stannis. Yet it sheds amazing light on a character that is constantly being thrown curveballs by destiny. You get the impression that if things had worked out from the start, he might have been a different person and maybe, just maybe, a decent king.

Don't discount too, The Onion Knight. You will agree he is almost universally respected by readers of the series. He LOVES Stannis, despite having a few digits whacked off by him. HE must see something in Stannis, too - not just blind loyalty, either. He's shown all along that he can speak his mind in front of Stannis.

 

[loxmyth]

Fair enough, and thanks for participating and clarifying, loxmyth.

No problem. Some days I lurk, and some days I have a big mouth. (Heh, I guess this is what I get for taking the position I have on a thread started by a guy named 'King_Stannis')

I'll say this about the one point - Stannis really didn't know Ned Stark. It's easy for us to say in hindsight that he would have supported Stannis because we know he DID support Stannis after finding it out. But there was no way for Stannis to know, and what reason would he have to trust Ned - his brother's best friend.

I think that everyone is at least aware of the character of the other important political figures. Everyone seemed to know that Stannis was extremely legalistic for example... in fact, that would be the only way I could see anyone taking his claim to the throne seriously.

Likewise, even if Stannis didn't really know the guy who grew up with his older brother very well, he should have known about Ned's reputation as a goody two shoes. Jaime and Cersei certainly knew it, and they used it against him. Let's face it, what we see of Ned shows that he's honourable and very lawful... possibly Lawful Stupid, even. No one else in the series comes close to trying to do "the right thing" from a modern viewpoint as he does. I think this would be something that would make him quite reknown as a leader.

I think Stannis was as aware of Ned's ethics as people are aware that (IIRC) Arthur Dayne, the Sword of Morning, was one of the greatest swordsmen in Westeros. I think you touch on the real reason he keeps quiet below.

As for Stannis being bitter about his brother liking Stark better, that is a window to his humanity. Lots of people (not saying you) want to think he lives ONLY for laws and nothing more. But he is genuinely hurt by Robert's affection for Ned, just as he was genuinely hurt his other brother would attempt to jump his rightful claim to the throne.

And I agree with this assessment, and I do recall vaguely the peach scene. It is Stannis' most sympathetic portrayal in my mind. But I think he's just too embittered to always think clearly. That, and his penchant for careful, deliberate action (as you point out) was possibly his undoing. Or at least most of the fighting could have been nipped in the bud early.

Don't discount too, The Onion Knight. You will agree he is almost universally respected by readers of the series. He LOVES Stannis, despite having a few digits whacked off by him. HE must see something in Stannis, too - not just blind loyalty, either. He's shown all along that he can speak his mind in front of Stannis.

Point. This I can agree with. But I still think Stannis is far from perfect. There may be kernels of a good man there, but he's some questionable things that just don't sit well with me.

 

[Zenon]

What’s really galling are the people who just love Jaime Lannister after book 3, and can’t say enough good about him. Stannis was going to sacrifice his nephew in order to SAVE THE WORLD, and even then he resisted and resisted because it was something he did not want to do. Jamie Lannister tries to kill a 7 year-old kid in one of the worst ways possible to keep an incestuous affair with his sister from being discovered. He almost murdered a 7 year-old boy so he could keep poking his own sister!

Yeah, Stannis is the real monster.

I don't normally enter book discussions, but I'll try to inject my thoughts into this one.

First, I don't hate Stannis. I pity him. Stannis is too hard, too obsessed with justice. From the scene with the peach you see he really wants to be liked, but just doesn't know how to have people like and respect him instead of fear him. The Red Witch plays him like a fiddle with these feelings: "Renly's liked better than you, you should be king. Your nephews blood is needed for you to save the world" and Stannis believes her! I just shake my head and wish he'd wise up. I did like his coming to the Wall, it was the right thing to do.

As for liking Jamie - through the first two books, no I didn't care for him then. Especially throwing Bran off the tower. However, since losing him hand, Jamie has had to re-evaluate himself by taking a long look at who he is and what he's done. I believe he says to himself once "Is that all I was? A sword hand?" or something similar. He begins to push Cersci away after he actually realizes she's just using him same as she always has. He sits down and for the first time, tries to BE the Commander of the Kingsguard. He's trying to change and to grow. Given time, who knows what he can make out of himself? The part when Jamie sat down with the Book of the Kingsguard and actually started updating it really sticks in my mind as the turning point for me on my feeling towards the character, where he started to actaully take up the resposibilities he has had all along and do something with them instead of just play around. I like watching a character grow and change like that, especially from someone who you initially hate into someone who you're almost cheering for to change into something good.

I don't know if I could see Stannis being able to change, he's too narrow of vision. If Stannis tried to change I think he would not be able to. To change he would have to admit there was a flaw in him that needed to be changed, and Stannis can't accept that in others, let alone within himself.

Am I making any sense here? It's kind of hard for me to explain.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

He begins to push Cersci away after he actually realizes she's just using him same as she always has.

IIRC- She pushes him away, doesn't she?

He sits down and for the first time, tries to BE the Commander of the Kingsguard.

Well another IIRC, he wasn't the commander before. He was made so when he finally got back to his family.

I like watching a character grow and change like that, especially from someone who you initially hate into someone who you're almost cheering for to change into something good.

I will cheer when he is hanging from a tree.

SD

 

[King_Stannis]

I don't normally enter book discussions, but I'll try to inject my thoughts into this one.

First, I don't hate Stannis. I pity him. Stannis is too hard, too obsessed with justice. From the scene with the peach you see he really wants to be liked, but just doesn't know how to have people like and respect him instead of fear him. The Red Witch plays him like a fiddle with these feelings: "Renly's liked better than you, you should be king. Your nephews blood is needed for you to save the world" and Stannis believes her! I just shake my head and wish he'd wise up. I did like his coming to the Wall, it was the right thing to do.

Partially right about him not knowing how to make people respect and love him. The scene with the peach was a private conversation with really his only true friend. The problem is, how can he make people respect and love him if he isn't afforded his rightful chance to? Many times leaders need to be in power a little bit before they can shine. Quite frankly, with all of the corruption and problems in Westeros, I'm starting to wonder if Stannis would not become the savior of the land.

Forgive me for saying this, but how do you know what Melisandre's motivation is? There seems to be alot of people who have already convicted her as a power hungry witch who's duping Stannis for personal gain. If this series has taught anything, is it not that we should hold all bets? Martin has a way of surprising you, not in the most pleasant of ways. Wouldn't that be galling to the people who revile Stannis and Mel - if there was truth in their belief.

As for liking Jamie - through the first two books, no I didn't care for him then. Especially throwing Bran off the tower. However, since losing him hand, Jamie has had to re-evaluate himself by taking a long look at who he is and what he's done. I believe he says to himself once "Is that all I was? A sword hand?" or something similar. He begins to push Cersci away after he actually realizes she's just using him same as she always has. He sits down and for the first time, tries to BE the Commander of the Kingsguard. He's trying to change and to grow. Given time, who knows what he can make out of himself? The part when Jamie sat down with the Book of the Kingsguard and actually started updating it really sticks in my mind as the turning point for me on my feeling towards the character, where he started to actaully take up the resposibilities he has had all along and do something with them instead of just play around. I like watching a character grow and change like that, especially from someone who you initially hate into someone who you're almost cheering for to change into something goood.

I don't know if I could see Stannis being able to change, he's too narrow of vision. If Stannis tried to change I think he would not be able to. To change he would have to admit there was a flaw in him that needed to be changed, and Stannis can't accept that in others, let alone within himself.

Am I making any sense here? It's kind of hard for me to explain.

As for Jaime Lannister, he's a monster. Yeah, he's starting to change his ways - a little - but updating the history of the Kingsguard is not exactly penance for trying to murder a 7 year old kid (just so you can keep porking your twin sister). Sorry, Jaime Lannister has A LOT of good deed to do before you can say he's morally superior than Stannis.

But again, thank you for your opinions. I like this discussion.

 

[KnowTheToe]

I have visited the "Ring of Ice and Fire" boards, dedicated to Martin's series,

Have a link?

 

[Zenon]

Forgive me for saying this, but how do you know what Melisandre's motivation is? There seems to be alot of people who have already convicted her as a power hungry witch who's duping Stannis for personal gain. If this series has taught anything, is it not that we should hold all bets? Martin has a way of surprising you, not in the most pleasant of ways. Wouldn't that be galling to the people who revile Stannis and Mel - if there was truth in their belief.

Well, that whole birthing an evil shadow from Stannis to go kill Renly thing kind of put me off to her

There's also the thing with hyping Stannis up as the return of Azer-ali(?) with his flamming sword. But doesn't the one blind maester make a comment to someone that the sword produces no heat? The scabbard doesn't burn? It just seems like a normal sword?( The funny thing with the light is if you stare into it too long you go blind....)

The above with the flamming sword also makes me think Mel is putting one over on Stannis. But, like you say GRRM loves his surprises, and fire sure does melt some ice (or Others). We'll have to see.

As for Jaime Lannister, he's a monster. Yeah, he's starting to change his ways - a little - but updating the history of the Kingsguard is not exactly penance for trying to murder a 7 year old kid (just so you can keep porking your twin sister). Sorry, Jaime Lannister has A LOT of good deed to do before you can say he's morally superior than Stannis.

But again, thank you for your opinions. I like this discussion.

I didn't say it made up for anything, just that it was the part when I, as the reader, started to have a change of heart about Jamie. He was reading the lists of all these great knights and their deeds, and then looked at himself and his current knights and I think it hit him that they were nothing like the old Kingsguard. He sure does have a whole lot to do to make up for what we've seen, but it looks as though he's on the right path to try to make up for it. Again, we'll have to see...

Morality is a shaky thing to bring to anyone in ASoI&F. I never claimed Jamie was any better than Stannis, just that he seemed more inclinded to change (possibly for the better).

Man, I'm dyin' 'till the next book (and I'll have to get hold of it first before my wife does so I don't have to wait for her to finish it). Come on, April!

 

[King_Stannis]

Re: Re: (ASoI&F - spoilers) Why the hatred for Stannis Baratheon?

Have a link?

http://pub26.ezboard.com/basoiaf

There you go.

 

[KnowTheToe]

Re: Re: Re: (ASoI&F - spoilers) Why the hatred for Stannis Baratheon?

http://pub26.ezboard.com/basoiaf

There you go.

Thank you