D&D 5E Assassins, Alignment, and Archetypes

[Zardnaar]

I kind of like Bhaal in FR. The class was inspired by the assassins in the ME.

I've got this idea for a creed of assassins game. There's this matrix like illusion where you can pretend to be in the past.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I kind of like Bhaal in FR. The class was inspired by the assassins in the ME.

I've got this idea for a creed of assassins game. There's this matrix like illusion where you can pretend to be in the past.

I, too, am inebriated!

 

[Fenris-77]

I really like the Bleed idea. Especially if a bleeding target has their speed slowed. Really nice way to get past mooks to your real target.

I don’t dig crit multipliers so much. Extra dice on a crit, I could get behind, or maybe steal 4e’s brutal mechanic and reroll any 1 or 2 until they are higher than 1 or 2 on shroud damage. That would raise the average, and do so even more on a crit. Another option would be to double the Lethal threshold on a crit?

I also still like the idea of gaining a “destroy target” ability where if you deal half their HP in damage and they are CR [n] or lower, they must save or drop to 0hp. Maybe that could be what makes crits special?

Dropping the slowed condition on every target you hit sounds like a lot, but I like the idea. Maybe it's just on a crit that the condition gets activated as a rider? That might keep it form being OP.

Some sort of mechanic to reroll low damage dice on crits would work, yeah. I was really talking about extra dice though. I didn't really explain that very well though. I was envisioning a progression where the class goes from rolling two weapon damage dice on a crit to three, and then four. Not even necessarily multiplying the shroud die, although that could also be the case. We're talking d4s and d6s so rolling 3 or 4 of them on a crit isn't breaking the game at higher levels.

I like the destroy target ability too. Is there a way we can decouple that from CR? Not everybody uses that straight out of the tin and it feels like a lot of double checking for the DM. That said, if it's mooks mostly it shouldn't be that hard to track. We'd need to think hard about what the CR [n] or equivalent should be as well.

As for the parry, there are a bunch of abilities that allow X reaction on a missed melee attack. It could just be a higher tier ability that allows a reaction attack on a miss period. Nice and simple. I think the Shrouds could be based on the BA too. I'm picturing TWF being the class primary, so that would have them choosing round to rounnd between the extra attack and maybe more crits and the shrouds, plus maybe dodging. That sounds like a meaningful tactical choice. I like it. Generally keep ripostes and dodges to the R and BA and make it a choice that matters.

 

[Zardnaar]

I, too, am inebriated!

Stone cold sober, some Zatecky Gus would be nice.

Bottle of wine in the fridge hot summer day sigh.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Dropping the slowed condition on every target you hit sounds like a lot, but I like the idea. Maybe it's just on a crit that the condition gets activated as a rider? That might keep it form being OP.

maybe save vs slow?

Some sort of mechanic to reroll low damage dice on crits would work, yeah. I was really talking about extra dice though. I didn't really explain that very well though. I was envisioning a progression where the class goes from rolling two weapon damage dice on a crit to three, and then four. Not even necessarily multiplying the shroud die, although that could also be the case. We're talking d4s and d6s so rolling 3 or 4 of them on a crit isn't breaking the game at higher levels.

that could work.

I like the destroy target ability too. Is there a way we can decouple that from CR? Not everybody uses that straight out of the tin and it feels like a lot of double checking for the DM. That said, if it's mooks mostly it shouldn't be that hard to track. We'd need to think hard about what the CR [n] or equivalent should be as well.

it’s possible that hp could work. Some higher CR critters have lower HP because they’re more glass cannon, but hell, that might be okay.

As for the parry, there are a bunch of abilities that allow X reaction on a missed melee attack. It could just be a higher tier ability that allows a reaction attack on a miss period. Nice and simple. I think the Shrouds could be based on the BA too. I'm picturing TWF being the class primary, so that would have them choosing round to rounnd between the extra attack and maybe more crits and the shrouds, plus maybe dodging. That sounds like a meaningful tactical choice. I like it. Generally keep ripostes and dodges to the R and BA and make it a choice that matters.

I think we are on mostly the same page, tbh. I like the monk’s deflect arrow ability, maybe coming online later? Give the parry part in tier 2, and the riposte later since it’s potentially more powerful than the monk’s deflect attack?
Or make it the main thing of the assassins creed style guy, but I’d prefer it as a class feature that comes online before tier 3 if possible. If it costs a shroud it is also slowing down damage buildup, which is a solid cost.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Real quick question:

names. I know, more important stuff, but hear me out.

Enclaves, Schools, or Guilds. (Please no arguments from tradition, here)

What do we think of naming them after monsters. Ie;

School of the Manticore (poisoner)

Banshee Enclave (Fey themed fear and charm master)

Peryton Guild (assassins creed/4e executioner)

School of The Wraith (shadow master)

Enclave of the Felidar (divine assassin, “sometimes justice is a blade in the left hand of god”)

 

[Fenris-77]

Could we call them Shadows? Shadow of the Manticore sounds cool. Veils would work too. Barring that, maybe Schools. Or Creeds!

Lets leave Destroy Target as based on CR for now, and change it if we think of something fancy. What were you thinking for a CR cap? AT 20th level the CR that can be insta-ganked is...

Maybe now is the right time to start picking and choosing what is base class and what is subclass. I was kind of picturing each subclass having a unique ability and another ability or two that leverages existing class abilities like shrouds or crits (or both) and do something unique with the mechanic.

Oh yeah, riposte online later sounds right.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, no. Not so much. You need to let go of your hate and anger Luke. Let go of your preconceptions about alignment. Let go of your narrow non-melee vision. Lead to the dark side those things do.

Given as the dark side is exactly where I expect to find Assassins, that somehow seems appropriate.

The assassin in your post is pretty categorically not what's on the table here. I also find that assassin intriguing, but only as a NPC. A better set of comps might be Kalam Mekhar or Apsalar from the Malazan books, or Rallick Nom from the same series. Or Caine from the Acts of Caine series.

Sorry, not familiar with any of those.

The kind of fantasy fiction assassin we're talking about is very much melee competent - fast, accurate and deadly. Precise and skilled rather than brutal, but deadly nonetheless.

Sounds like you're talking about something more akin to a 4e striker, which isn't at all what I'm after here.

Poison probably shouldn't be a factor either, or at least it wouldn't be for me - I'll either add deadly poisons to my game or not, but they aren't just a toy for one class, nor just for the good guys. The whole "only one chance" idea above is precisely why the Rogue archetype won't cut the mustard either - that emphasizes solo play and makes the character generally useless (and not fun to play).

That's the whole point: the Assassin is very much a solo character. (yet still lots of fun to play) Sure there's times an Assassin fits into a party and can bring something they otherwise lack (which is why they get some Rogue abilities; if the party needs a Rogue an Assassin can kinda fill the bill) but most of the time they're running solo.

I never for a second either said or implied this class would be easy to play in a typical game.

 

[Lanefan]

I'm not sure how observation and a tactical approach to combat equal 'flailing around'. It could just as easily be read as "four times as likely to land a telling blow due to precision and planning". Keep in mind that it's also just one mechanic and it applies to all the assassins attacks. Part of the program was to make a more DPR assassin

No.

If it's into worrying about DPR that implies it's in an ongoing combat, which means it's done something wrong.

 

[Lanefan]

WTF is a 'shroud', anyway? Is that something out of post-initial-release 4e (all of which I ignored)?