D&D 5E Attack Cantrips

[Kobold Stew]

Changes have been made to both Ray of Frost and Lance of Faith, which is now Sacred Flame.

Ray of Frost.
* it's now an attack spell, a magical attack (and no longer something saved against)
* range is halved to 50' from 100'.

Sacred Flame.
* is mechanically identical to Lance of Faith, except for range.
* range is halved to 25' from 50'.
* flavour text goes crazy cancels the concept of a laser cleric.

Thoughts:
1. The change of Ray of Frost to an attack spell is right (as has been discussed on these boards).
2. I'd prefer it to be a ranged attack than a magical attack (using dexterity), so that the choice for a wizard (or sorcerer) to be a ray specialist; not for every wizard to be equally capable. Using a second stat encourages some system specialization, some balance and design choice.
3. Sacred Flame is still passive (a spell defended against rather than an attack).
4. Flames descending from above?! what's up with this? Where do they begin? What's wrong with the notion of a laser cleric?
5. The reduced range is not a big penalty for the Lightbringer cleric, at least: Disciple of the Sun lets a cleric cast Sacred Flame as a reaction against melee attacks. Still: as a reaction, the unarmoured cleric drops flames on her opponent's head.
6. The only "benefit" I see is that it removes one of the two uses of the holy symbol. (That was just in the flavour text, too, but it was at least there. Now there's no reason to have a holy symbol as a cleric until you are casting a seventh-level spell (Destruction). But it's still there in every equipment package.
7. Why are these spells not parallel? Why is the Wizard's cantrip so much better than the Cleric's? Why do the designers want to keep clerics passive?

* The change to Ray of Frost is a step forward: it's better now, and the 50' range is reasonable.
* The change to Lance of Faith (into Sacred Flame) is actively regressive, entrenching the problems with the spell previously, and cutting the range significantly.
* I really think both spells should be parallel, ranged attack spells (50'?)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Lance of Faith/Sacred Flame is boring. The 4e version carried a minor buff (as clerics were leaders). This is still just damage, which makes it too similar to a wizard "blasting" ability.

I don't mind flame dropping from the sky; IMO, that's more evocative than a "laser" (speaking as a player of a laser cleric).

 

[Squidmaster]

It's possible that they want to keep cleric cantrips contained a bit so that there is incentive to use actual weapons. I'm not sure they are succeeding.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I don't mind flame dropping from the sky; IMO, that's more evocative than a "laser" (speaking as a player of a laser cleric).

I like them too -- and fire from the sky is one thing. Fire from the roof of a tavern? Underwater from 4' above the target's head? within a jail cell or in a hayloft? It's needless and in most cases will have to simply be ignored.

It's possible that they want to keep cleric cantrips contained a bit so that there is incentive to use actual weapons. I'm not sure they are succeeding.

This I just don't understand: I'm not asking for the "laser" to be more powerful than a mace; but I do want it to be a viable choice, and for the cleric not to be outclassed. Make it d6; fine. Require a Dex roll, which will make it harder to hit; fine. But allow for the build to work.

Many divinities grant full armour and shield proficiencies, and perhaps even all martial weapons. The Lightbringer deity doesn't do either, but gives unarmoured clerics a defensive reaction when attacked in melee -- that's what's being nerfed here. The choices associated with the Lightbringer are under-optimized compared to the armoured and often better-weaponed alternatives.

 

[Squidmaster]

The part that I noticed right away is that the cantrip progresses in damage at the same pace that martial classes progress in weapon damage. Meanwhile, the cleric's weapon damage is increasing at a much slower rate. It might take a while for this to become a problem, but eventually, wouldn't all clerics want to use the cantrip?

 

[Klaus]

Note that Sacred Flame ignores cover (hence why it's a "resisted" spell). That alone makes it different from Lance of Faith.

As for casting it indoors or underwater: a vortex of light appears a few feet above the target and flames shoot down, like a kid version of Flame Strike.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Yup. It also bypasses armor and Mage Armor. Still doesn't make it a good idea, imo.

 

[Warbringer]

As for casting it indoors or underwater: a vortex of light appears a few feet above the target and flames shoot down, like a kid version of Flame Strike.

Nice copy, and far more descriptive

 

[Warbringer]

Yup. It also bypasses armor and Mage Armor. Still doesn't make it a good idea, imo.

What isn't a good idea? Sorry, not understanding you objections to the change

 

[Kobold Stew]

I want there to be a viable choice to be a laser cleric. Using the Lightbringer Deity is the natural way to do it (esp. since with one exception it is the only divinity not also granting weapon or armour proficiencies).

I want a targeted spell, to keep the player active. Not something passive (i.e. like the change made to Ray of Frost). I'd prefer it to be a ranged attack rather than a magical attack (using Dexterity rather than Wisdom, in this case), so (again) it's a choice to be a laser cleric, and not all clerics are equally proficient -- that there is some balance and choice in the character build.

(Note this doesn't require removing Sacred Flame as is; again, let it be a choice)

And, if I'm giving a wish list, I'd like whatever the cantrip is called to require a cleric to wield a holy symbol in her hand (but I'd like that for many cleric spells, not just this one.)