Avengers: Endgame SPOILER THREAD

Blue

Orcus on a bad hair day
I was talking to my wife (always smarter than I) about Thor's end. To her, it was like growing up in a small town and then getting out to see the world. Even if you were the mayor's kid and a shoe in to be mayor yourself one day, maybe you aren't happy with just that small town any more. Even if it's a pretty spectacular small town.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
I'm with you on this - I don't like all the backsliding of his character growth. He's doing what he always did, which would have been in character if he hadn't grown.
I think the character growth is still in place - growth does not mean, "consistent movement towards a management position". Sometimes growth isn't about changing what you do, but why you do it, for example.

Consider, Iron Man. He keeps on promising Pepper, "No more surprises." Does he stop with the surprises? He does what he always does. Heck, even after outright refusing to do what he always does (like, figure out time travel), he goes and does it anyway, and then he talks with Pepper and they both admit that even having done it, he can't throw it away - he *has* to go back and do what he always does....

There is a fine line between being in the groove, and being in a rut - and sometimes growth is about moving from the latter into the former.

(Ant-Man is the other, btu that's not as natural a pairing)
Hm. What's the classic "team up" combat move here? Ant Man shrinks down, Thor *thwaps* him with a hammer, and he takes off like a bullet, passing through three or four robots before stopping?
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Just lobbing his responsibility to the strong female in his life so he can be an irresponsible man-child. He barely gave Valkyrie a choice.
Plus... how is she better suited to lead? She's just as much a warrior as he is (and has as much of a drinking problem).
It’s established early in the movie that she has been leading New Asgard for 5 years, already, and we see no signs of her drinking in the film.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
It’s established early in the movie that she has been leading New Asgard for 5 years, already, and we see no signs of her drinking in the film.
Yeah. She had a problem in the beginning of Thor: Ragnarok. But her involvement in those events seem to have shaken her out of her rut.
 

Janx

Adventurer
Why are we still picking on Thor?

Yes, it would have been nice to see everybody get happy ending.

But the reality, actual drunks fall off the wagon a few times. People stumble. Thor might regress again or hasn't quite lost his wanderlust. Got a few things to work out, yet. He didn't actually figure out what he wanted to do from all of that movie, that was just him dealing with the problem that he got dragged back into.

Hemsworth said he was done being Thor, but here he is with a non-retired ending. So there we are. He'd have asked for an endier ending if he wanted it.

Besides, he'll change up the dynamic of GotG. Quill won't hit on him, because he's still pining over Gamora.

What would GotG been if Quill got the G back at the end? The same team-up we had in the last 2 movies. So now, the 3rd one will be different.
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad hair day
Yeah. She had a problem in the beginning of Thor: Ragnarok. But her involvement in those events seem to have shaken her out of her rut.
Though as a bit of a continuity bobble - why didn't she lose to Thanos as well? Where was she?

End of Ragnarok she was on that singular ship with Thor, Heimdeil, Loki and the rest. Which is destroyed in Infinity War. But here's Valkyrie as well as Korg and Miek.

But yeah, she stepped up in the 5 years.
 

ccs

39th lv DM
Though as a bit of a continuity bobble - why didn't she lose to Thanos as well? Where was she?
Off recovering from the beating she & everyone else - who wasn't already dead - on the Asgard ship took at the beginning of IW I'd imagine. There's not a lot of time passing from start to finish of IW....
So if you're not Thor or the Hulk, guess what? You don't get to heal up enough to play a part.
 

Nellisir

Adventurer
Well, in the movie I saw I clearly heard Bruce explain to the group how the IW loss was worse for him. He lost not once, but twice!

So I don't have to speculate or guess. Hulk was afraid. IW showed me the hulk getting his ass kicked & his later refusal to emerge. In EG Banner told it to me. What more do I need? Joe Russo sitting in the seat beside me personally explaining it?
That would highlight how the movie dropped the ball there, yeah.

I like Endgame. It's a good movie. I don't think Banner or Hulk (who existed as a functionally separate character until this movie - another victim of the snap) were well served by it. But it's a big movie with a lot of moving parts, and not every plot point could be knocked out of the park. It's still epic.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Though as a bit of a continuity bobble - why didn't she lose to Thanos as well? Where was she?

End of Ragnarok she was on that singular ship with Thor, Heimdeil, Loki and the rest. Which is destroyed in Infinity War. But here's Valkyrie as well as Korg and Miek.
I vaguely recall they mention in that scene - as usual, Thanos killed *half* the people on board. We don't see the other half - I imagine Thanos shoved them into escape pods or something.

Of course, this shows Thano's logic issue - the Asgardians had just lost a small horde of people to Hel. The entire race fits on one ship now - not exactly a major resource-sink any more. They probably don't need their population cut in half at that point.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Well, in the movie I saw I clearly heard Bruce explain to the group how the IW loss was worse for him. He lost not once, but twice!

So I don't have to speculate or guess. Hulk was afraid. IW showed me the hulk getting his ass kicked & his later refusal to emerge. In EG Banner told it to me. What more do I need? Joe Russo sitting in the seat beside me personally explaining it?
Yeah, this was pretty clear to me, too.

We can't speak to it from just folks here but... I am not sure enough people missed that to call it the movie "dropping the ball". If everyone was asking, "Wait, what was up with the Hulk there?" I'd see that. But... I have not heard such a chorus.
 

Ryujin

Adventurer
That would highlight how the movie dropped the ball there, yeah.

I like Endgame. It's a good movie. I don't think Banner or Hulk (who existed as a functionally separate character until this movie - another victim of the snap) were well served by it. But it's a big movie with a lot of moving parts, and not every plot point could be knocked out of the park. It's still epic.
The merging of the two might have been a bit of fan service to comic readers who remember "Smart Hulk."
 

Janx

Adventurer
Today, I saw the counter-argument that BW got worse treatment than Thor.

Way back in Ultron, they turned her into a romantic interest and had her say she was a monster while revealing she couldn't have children. Not a good time to combine two angsty things as it sent the wrong message about women, having children defining their worth, and the arc she was having where she accepted her past and red ledger in Civil War.

Now fast forward to EndGame, and she's in a who can kill themselves quicker race with Yeehaw Barton (you can search Twitter for that and find the source of this entire chain of thought) to jump off a cliff and die.

Basically, all that growth, and she's disposable because Barton, who 20 minutes earlier was killing people of color, has children.

Topping off that sad cake with a short bit of sad "where's Natasha" when they return, and that's it. Tony got a funeral. BW did not.

I couldn't tell you the Russo's intent (or Whedon's) and imagine they'd argue differently. But I can see how this interpretation also makes sense and wouldn't strike some people as a good ending or handling for BW.
 

Nellisir

Adventurer
The merging of the two might have been a bit of fan service to comic readers who remember "Smart Hulk."
Oh, yeah, totally. I don't MIND that they were merged. I just don't think it was handled all that well. And most of the smart Hulk incarnations (I think there's a "Professor Hulk", and Joe Fixit, and the Maestro, and...others?) took on aspects of Hulk's personality. I didn't really see that. It was Hulk body and Banner mind. Potent, but...man. It would've been great to see Banner get really really angry. :)

I suspect Ruffalo has fun with the Hulk and he might turn up a few more times.
 

Nellisir

Adventurer
I couldn't tell you the Russo's intent (or Whedon's) and imagine they'd argue differently. But I can see how this interpretation also makes sense and wouldn't strike some people as a good ending or handling for BW.
Yeah, when it's laid out like that...it's pretty :):):):):):). Hopefully the movie does her right.
 

GreyLord

Adventurer
Today, I saw the counter-argument that BW got worse treatment than Thor.

Way back in Ultron, they turned her into a romantic interest and had her say she was a monster while revealing she couldn't have children. Not a good time to combine two angsty things as it sent the wrong message about women, having children defining their worth, and the arc she was having where she accepted her past and red ledger in Civil War.

Now fast forward to EndGame, and she's in a who can kill themselves quicker race with Yeehaw Barton (you can search Twitter for that and find the source of this entire chain of thought) to jump off a cliff and die.

Basically, all that growth, and she's disposable because Barton, who 20 minutes earlier was killing people of color, has children.

Topping off that sad cake with a short bit of sad "where's Natasha" when they return, and that's it. Tony got a funeral. BW did not.

I couldn't tell you the Russo's intent (or Whedon's) and imagine they'd argue differently. But I can see how this interpretation also makes sense and wouldn't strike some people as a good ending or handling for BW.
Enough time has passed that I think I'll just flat out post spoilers...now that they are out anyways.

I think it was this thread where I commented earlier (somewhere I said it) they killed off the wrong one in that scene. With the weight of Hawkeye on himself...should have been him who died instead of BW.

Just my thought on that one as far as the movie goes (without any thought of merchandise, toys, future series in the making...etc). For the movie, I felt it would have made a LOT more sense of Black Widow to have survived...though I think she probably could have outfought him. He had done a lot of killing of people already, and knowing that his family could be back...that's a lot of weight and guilt to have around. In some ways, the movie implies he actually was a villain for a while, while Black Widow remained a hero.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
So does past Thor now no longer have Mjolnir, since future Thor turned up and stole it and took it back to the future? And when future Thor was talking to past mum, and called Mjolnir to him, did he rip it out of past Thor's hand? Is past Thor standing around with a confused look on his face wondering where Mjolnir just flew off to?

(I don't remember where past Thor is at that point in time?)
 

Janx

Adventurer
So does past Thor now no longer have Mjolnir, since future Thor turned up and stole it and took it back to the future? And when future Thor was talking to past mum, and called Mjolnir to him, did he rip it out of past Thor's hand? Is past Thor standing around with a confused look on his face wondering where Mjolnir just flew off to?

(I don't remember where past Thor is at that point in time?)
I think the 2019 avengers are relying on the 5-second Rule. So if they steal it from the past and return it right after they stole it, it's OK.

So Cap went back in time at the end to return all the stones (and quill wakes up with a headache) along with Mjoljnir on Asgard.

Past Thor is used to forgetting where he left his hammer, so it's no big deal.
 

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