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Avengers: Endgame SPOILER THREAD

ccs

39th lv DM
Which is rolling back his past character arcs. And, hey, he's a prince: they seldom get to be who they are expected to be.


The catch is, that doesn't work for the MCU. Because then you have to wonder why Thor doesn't come back and help. Because he's a rogue warrior out there trying to right wrongs.
So why isn't he helping when the inevitable Avengers 5 happens?
Even moderately intelligent people will realize that, as Capt. Marvel pointed out on screen, it's a big universe out there.
So storywise why doesn't Thor appear? Because he's busy doing something far far away. And that might be a story we'll all get to watch later. :)

Instead, he needs to have his "end" in Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3. Which feels weird, as that should be about the Guardians and wrapping up their story.
Wrong on both counts. Neither needs a "end".
What's needed is A) coherent storytelling, B) Leaving the door open for more stories involving these characters.
So Thor flying off with the Guardians here as End Game wraps? That's a great place to leave Thor. If it works out & they come up next story involving Thor & Hemsworth signs on? Great! If not? Then Thor flew off with the Guardians, parted ways with them at some point off screen, & is just off having adventures we just don't get to see. But he could return.

Likewise with the Guardians. They don't need an "end". Just a good adventure. Nor does Thor have to be with them just because we last saw him standing in their ships cockpit.
And if any of the actors don't return after G3? Then those characters are just off screen doing their own thing.
 

Jester David

Villager
Even moderately intelligent people will realize that, as Capt. Marvel pointed out on screen, it's a big universe out there.
So storywise why doesn't Thor appear? Because he's busy doing something far far away. And that might be a story we'll all get to watch later. :)
But even with the big universe out there, Captain Marvel still made it back in time for the big final fight.
If there's a big galaxy threatening problem, you have to wonder why Thor isn't helping.

Will it be a story we get to watch later? Probably not. Hemsworth maybe has one movies left in his contract. Maybe. Like RDJ, Chris Evans, Patrick Stewart, or Hugh Jackman he'll want to retire eventually.

It will be weird if Thor just fades into the background never to be seen again, rather than getting the amazing send off the character deserves (like Wolverine, Iron Man, Captain America, etc, etc.)
(It will also be somewhat weird if—of all the characters—Thor gets a fourth movie.)

Wrong on both counts. Neither needs a "end".
What's needed is A) coherent storytelling, B) Leaving the door open for more stories involving these characters.
No, you're wrong here. It absolutely NEEDS and "end".

You think there'll be a Guardians of the Galaxy 4?
That the actors will be drop everything in 6 years when it's time for Avengers 5?
That they should be like Han Solo, and being sad, pathetic space vagabonds still out trying to make a score into their 70s?

The MCU doesn't seem to be doing the standard super hero movie thing of endless sequels with the same characters. They chose to kill half the original Avengers rather than recast them.

The next Guardians movie will likely be the last with those characters. And having the door open for more stories just means those characters are left hanging and have no resolution.
It'd be one of those movies that is supposed to launch a franchise or sets up a sequel but that doesn't happen.

So Thor flying off with the Guardians here as End Game wraps? That's a great place to leave Thor. If it works out & they come up next story involving Thor & Hemsworth signs on? Great! If not? Then Thor flew off with the Guardians, parted ways with them at some point off screen, & is just off having adventures we just don't get to see. But he could return.
Right, but he shouldn't.
This was the "end" of the MCU as we know it. Thor should have had his end, rather than be the weird guy that hangs around the party after everyone else has gone home.

Having him fade away here just makes his ending sad. He's just a giant space vaganbond. What was Thor's end? Dead in a ditch outside a space truckstop I guess...
And, not to mention, the fans will spend the next decade asking "where's Thor"? Y'know, like they have been with the Leader or Mandarin other dangling plot threads that will never be wrapped up.

And if any of the actors don't return after G3? Then those characters are just off screen doing their own thing.
Which is then weird. Because if/when they do the Kree/Shi'ar war or the Annihilation Wave, you'll wonder why the Guardians of the Galaxy aren't there.

People were asking non-stop why Captain Marvel wasn't involved in Avengers 1 and 2. And that's not going to stop any time soon.
 

Jester David

Villager
My problem with the presentation of Thor is actually largely divorced from his character arc.
To make my point, let's change one small detail: he's not fat, he's completely drunk.

Rocket and Hulk show up and Thor staggers out, slurring and barely able to stand. At the meeting, he's hungover and barely able to think. When he goes back in time, he pulls out a flask and downs it, then passes out. Rocket badly hides his body, and it is discovered by his mother who gives him a pep talk.
What changes about his arc in the movie? Nothing. He has the exact same character development from a loss of confidence to, well, abandoning his throne. Is he still the comic relief? Sure, we're just laughing at him for being an alcoholic.

The difference is, we're not making it about his body. All the jokes aren't about him being fat. Instead of "Cheese whiz" running through his veins it's "malt liquor". You're not making him into Chris Farley, where he's a bumbling, clumsy fat guy.
And you're not equating video game playing with obesity, invoking the tired cliche of gamers as overweight nerds who flee from women.

The difference is… it feels kinda bad to laugh at someone for being an alcoholic due to depression. That feels like much more of a tragic arc than someone who is just fat.
Even though in both instances you're treating a serious mental illness as a joke.
Swapping a bumbling and overeating for drunkenness is a lateral move, but it's still making a character crippled by depression into the movie's comic relief.

And it's not like the movie was super serious the rest of the time. You had Hulk dabbing. Scott losing his taco. America's Ass. Hulk double tapping… with a car. Rocket being Rocket. Paper football. Scott becoming a baby.
You didn't need Chris Hemsworth in a fat suit doing a Melissa McCarthy impression.


But capping that with a lame character arc just adds insult to injury.


It should have ended with Thor deciding it was time to actually be king, and not just fake it for 30 seconds. He should have been given the opportunity to grow up rather than continue to be a giant man-child that's unable to handle any responsibility.
He shouldn't have dumped leadership on Valkyrie, so he can continue shirking his responsibility and doing "nothing". He's just trading Korg and Miek for Star-Lord and Drax.

It should have ended with Thor giving up the warrior life for his people.His final scene with him should be him whispering Odin's restrictions into Stormbreaker “Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor.” and tossing it into the distance where it will lie until found by a new Thor.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
What are Cap years to normal human years anyway? How old is the old looking Cap at the end of the movie? There might a lot of years more in Cap's timeline than the calendar difference between when he arrived in the past to the present.
In the comics, his lifespan under the Super Soldier Serum is... unknown. He ages either extremely slowly, or not at all.

In the movies, it looks like he was born in 1918. He goes into the ice in 1945, when he's about 27 years old. He comes out of the ice in 2011, still effectively 27. Infinity War happens in 2017, when Rogers is 33. Jump 5 years in Endgame, he's 38 or so. Conveniently, Chris Evans happens to be 37.

Then he goes back to... some unknown year. The music playing in the scene where he's dancing with Peggy Carter is "It's been a long, long time," a tune released in 1945.

He lives a life with Peggy Carter. In the MCU timeline she dies in 2014 (in Winter Soldier) - presumably a that point he jumps forward to deliver the shield?

So maybe we can say he spent 1945 to 2014 in that life. That'd be 69 years. That would make him around... 107 when we see Old Cap?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
No, you're wrong here. It absolutely NEEDS and "end".
Maybe yes, maybe no. But, have you forgotten that the hero riding off into the sunset (without being set in some particular permanent state) is often a perfectly acceptable end?

The MCU doesn't seem to be doing the standard super hero movie thing of endless sequels with the same characters. They chose to kill half the original Avengers rather than recast them.
Um, maybe you need to see the new Spider-Man Trailer. (See it here - https://youtu.be/Nt9L1jCKGnE )

They have an entire multiverse to work with now. Alternates of all the different characters, played by the same or different actors, are now on the table. The singular connected stretch of the MCU is no longer a given.

Also, let us remember - Thor is 1500 years old. In the MCU, Odin was something like 5000+ years old when he died. In the comics, Odin was a literal million years old, if I recall correctly. For Thor to settle into one thing as an "end" at this point would be like saying someone getting out of college and having their first job be the end of their story. Barring accident, Thor is going to live a long time. He doesn't have to be king *NOW*.
 

Jester David

Villager
Maybe yes, maybe no. But, have you forgotten that the hero riding off into the sunset (without being set in some particular permanent state) is often a perfectly acceptable end?
Only when there’s no sequels.

Um, maybe you need to see the new Spider-Man Trailer. (See it here - https://youtu.be/Nt9L1jCKGnE )

They have an entire multiverse to work with now. Alternates of all the different characters, played by the same or different actors, are now on the table. The singular connected stretch of the MCU is no longer a given.
Yeah.... I’m pretty sure the con artist who started as a fake hero is scamming Fury.

You can guess the story pretty easily. Spider-man doesn’t want to be the new “Tony”. He’s debating leaving the hero gig. Wants the normal life. Mysterio shows up and is all “I’m Iron Man from another reality. I got this.” Spidey buys it and debates retiring. He has the “out”. But, of course, it’s a trick. And Mysterio is behind the whole thing.

Also, let us remember - Thor is 1500 years old. In the MCU, Odin was something like 5000+ years old when he died. In the comics, Odin was a literal million years old, if I recall correctly. For Thor to settle into one thing as an "end" at this point would be like saying someone getting out of college and having their first job be the end of their story. Barring accident, Thor is going to live a long time. He doesn't have to be king *NOW*.
Him being 1500 years old just makes it worse that he’s just being a perpetual man-child that is refusing to grow up.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Only when there’s no sequels.
Strange. Guardians of the Galaxy ended this way - "A little of both!" It can be a setup for a sequel, *or* an end. A multi-tasker!

Yeah.... I’m pretty sure the con artist who started as a fake hero is scamming Fury.
Because Fury is easily scammed? He would accept this because one guy says it? He would not, say, go visit Doctor Strange and get some verification, or something? Really?

Perhaps. Maybe one theme for the movie will be "Fury is now out of his depth."

Him being 1500 years old just makes it worse that he’s just being a perpetual man-child that is refusing to grow up.
Look, I get the idea that you don't like how the movie ended for his character. But this is starting to get really judgemental against a whole lot of real-world life paths. Yes, in our culture there's this expectation that you have a wild youth, but then you settle down into some "acceptable" role. Something comfortable. Conventional. Get promoted to top dog, and then settle in for the long quiet of middle age and beyond.

You ever hear of the Peter Principle? It is the principle that you see a lot of incompetent people in upper levels of an organization, because they take people who were really good at one job, and "promote" them into a new job at which they aren't skilled.

Thor is really good at beating people up. He is the God of Thunder. He is not the God of Hammers, or the God of War, or the God of Bureaucratic Administration.

None of what he *is* indicates that his skills are put to good use sitting on a chair and making decisions. If there's something cool about the message here, given to him *by his mother*, who is queen and so has both his and her people's best interests at heart, is that he should, first and foremost, to his own self be true. Very Shakespearean.

The only thing Thor has that would make him a decent ruler is a moral heart. Otherwise, he shows none of the characteristics of someone you want as head of a government. Chaining him to a throne would be a great way to make sure that the BBEGs of the universe don't get dealt with.
 

Jester David

Villager
Strange. Guardians of the Galaxy ended this way - "A little of both!" It can be a setup for a sequel, *or* an end. A multi-tasker!
Yeah. But then there was a SEQUEL.

Because Fury is easily scammed? He would accept this because one guy says it? He would not, say, go visit Doctor Strange and get some verification, or something? Really?

Perhaps. Maybe one theme for the movie will be "Fury is now out of his depth."
I'm not saying it would be easy. But it's also not impossible.
 

tomBitonti

Explorer
So maybe we can say he spent 1945 to 2014 in that life. That'd be 69 years. That would make him around... 107 when we see Old Cap?
Yes. Then: How old should he appear after 107 chronological years? Does his appearance in the movie match 107 "Cap" years? Could he be much older than 107?

Thx!
TomB
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Yes. Then: How old should he appear after 107 chronological years? Does his appearance in the movie match 107 "Cap" years? Could he be much older than 107?
We don't know. In the comics, they don't really call out that the Super Soldier Serum keeps him from aging until his age started to become an issue. You don't need to plant Spider-Man's or Iron Man's birth in any particular year, but Cap's background referenced a ever-receding WWII, and a way for him to stay hale and hearty was called for.

Until this point in the movies, he never hit 40, and no explanation was needed. In theory, Old Steve could have been in that alternate timeline for nigh forever. But, until there's some *reason* to think that, why would we?
 

Jester David

Villager
Look, I get the idea that you don't like how the movie ended for his character. But this is starting to get really judgemental against a whole lot of real-world life paths. Yes, in our culture there's this expectation that you have a wild youth, but then you settle down into some "acceptable" role. Something comfortable. Conventional. Get promoted to top dog, and then settle in for the long quiet of middle age and beyond.
I don't want to crap on anyone's lifestyle or choices. Or imply there's only one route to find yourself. But we've seen Thor be the king of Asgard before in the source material, and he's often done a good job. It wouldn't be out of character for him.

But Thor's decision at the end of the movie really feels like a juvenile move. It's someone opting out of life. He's still running away from his problems and friends and life.
He spent five years getting drunk and playing video games. And now he's off bumming around space Europe.

Just lobbing his responsibility to the strong female in his life so he can be an irresponsible man-child. He barely gave Valkyrie a choice.
Plus... how is she better suited to lead? She's just as much a warrior as he is (and has as much of a drinking problem).
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Yeah. But then there was a SEQUEL.
I don't see what you mean. The same end to one movie works as a lead-in to new stories, or to an implied, "and he goes off and does whatever he does, that's not what this story is about." Not all stories have to end with a character in a state of knowing what is next.

Not everything needs to be tied up in a bow, dude.


I'm not saying it would be easy. But it's also not impossible.
Quentin Beck may be lying about being a hero. Or from being from another dimension. Or both. He's probably lying about something, but if they've structured it well, we probably won't guess exactly what for a while.

But the fact there *are* other dimensions/universes/timelines to be from? We established this is true in Endgame. The Ancient One paints the picture for Hulk (and us). Presumably Doctor Strange can firm that up afterwards - he already knows that there are beings from timeless other places, after all. And the fact that they borrow Infinity Stones, Mjollnir, and Cap's Shield without wonking up their own past proves it, too.

There are many places to be from in the MCU, now. Get used to it.
 

Jester David

Villager
I don't see what you mean. The same end to one movie works as a lead-in to new stories, or to an implied, "and he goes off and does whatever he does, that's not what this story is about." Not all stories have to end with a character in a state of knowing what is next.

Not everything needs to be tied up in a bow, dude.
Then why did they wrap up every other character (with the exception of Hawkeye who is getting a TV series). Why not pass on the hammer like they did with the shield?

If Thor is never in another movie would you feel satisfied with this ending?

Quentin Beck may be lying about being a hero. Or from being from another dimension. Or both. He's probably lying about something, but if they've structured it well, we probably won't guess exactly what for a while.

But the fact there *are* other dimensions/universes/timelines to be from? We established this is true in Endgame. The Ancient One paints the picture for Hulk (and us). Presumably Doctor Strange can firm that up afterwards - he already knows that there are beings from timeless other places, after all. And the fact that they borrow Infinity Stones, Mjollnir, and Cap's Shield without wonking up their own past proves it, too.

There are many places to be from in the MCU, now. Get used to it.
Yeah. But we already knew there was a multiverse from Into the Spider-Verse.
Or that the MCU has always been Earth-199999.
That’s not really new to Marvel.
 

MarkB

Adventurer
If Thor is never in another movie would you feel satisfied with this ending?
They're comic-book characters, and Thor is thousands of years old. I'd far rather his story end with him still out there doing what he does than leaving him sitting on a throne.
 

Jester David

Villager
If his story ends with him sitting on a throne, why would we never see him sitting on a throne?
If the story never goes to New Asgard, there’s a good reasons why he’s not involved. Especially if he gives up the hammer.

If he’s off fighting and saving lives, and there’s a big galactic wide threat, why would he stay out? If Earth is in danger, why wouldn’t be Bifrost from across the galaxy to help?
 

MarkB

Adventurer
If the story never goes to New Asgard, there’s a good reasons why he’s not involved. Especially if he gives up the hammer.

If he’s off fighting and saving lives, and there’s a big galactic wide threat, why would he stay out? If Earth is in danger, why wouldn’t be Bifrost from across the galaxy to help?
If he's living in Norway and there's even an Earth-scale (heck, even just Europe-scale) threat, nevermind galactic-scale, why wouldn't he stand up off his throne and help? If anything his non-appearance in future movies is far more plausible if he's half a galaxy away.
 

Jester David

Villager
If he's living in Norway and there's even an Earth-scale (heck, even just Europe-scale) threat, nevermind galactic-scale, why wouldn't he stand up off his throne and help? If anything his non-appearance in future movies is far more plausible if he's half a galaxy away.
Which is why I also had him giving up the hammer.

Besides... not running off to fight and staying behind to rule would be the point or his growth. Having him change from Thor 1 to now and be more than the warrior quick to rush into battle without thinking.
Other than growing a sense of humor (because the actor is a goofball) has Thor really changed and grown over the past five movies? I don’t think so. Endgame erased any growth he underwent previously, returning him right back to where he was at the end of Dark World. If not the end of Thor 1.

[video=youtube_share;u6Bq_jK0Z1Y]https://youtu.be/u6Bq_jK0Z1Y[/video]

[video=youtube_share;mzIJ4HzLiIE]https://youtu.be/mzIJ4HzLiIE[/video]
 

Nellisir

Villager
There was a five year gap. We got to see several characters how they grew during those five years. Cap leading small counseling sessions because he cares about actual people. Tony and Pepper starting a family. Nat burning herself out trying to hold her chosen family together. And Banner/Hulk resolving the issues from the end of Infinity War, finding his center and coming to peace with himself (himselves?).

While it wasn't the only way to have that work out, it would have been jarring and bad writing if that hadn't been resolved in some way during that time.
It was jarring and bad writing the way they did resolve it.

You're exactly right. We did see Cap and how his sessions. Natasha trying to save the world. Clint likewise, in his own way. Tony moving on.

We didn't SEE Banner/Hulk resolve anything. We were told it. "Show, don't tell" is bog standard story advice in any medium.

And, why didn't Hulk come out in Avengers: Infinity War? There's no answer in the movie; no resolution. It's just a dropped plot point. You can speculate or guess, but the fact is they just didn't answer the question.
 

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