Balancing the Cleric

[JacktheRabbit]

What have you done to balance the Cleric? Everyone seems to be in agreement that the class is the just about the most powerful so how do we fix that.

Here are a couple thoughts.


1. Spontaneous casting is a full round action, or if that is not enough takes 1 minute. This means you have to actually memorize cure spells for use in combat.

2. Limit domains. Most domains that come from books beyond the PHB are overpowered.

3. Make the God matter. Too often who the cleric worships really doesnt matter. The laws and bylaws of their religion rarely come up when in fact they should be some of the most limiting aspects of the cleric. As an example all of my clerics gain an excluded list that comes with their God. If you are a cleric of a God of Freedom that fights slavery then you are guarunteed that Hold Person and any sort of Mind Control spells are on the clerics excluded list and won't be granted by their God.

 

[Crothian]

Well, first you need to determine what makes the cleric too powerful. IMO, take all those spells that last one hour per level and make them one minute per level. Then eliminate Persistant spell. The cleric is only the most powerful when he can buff everything and everybody up all day.

1)Don't mess with the healing, it allows clerics to actually vary their spell list.

2)Yes, some domains are more powerful then others. A DM has to be mindful of this.

3) Yes, Yes and so very Yes. Personally, if the god didn't matter in a campaign, I wouldn't play a cleric.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think these are mostly good ideas.

1. Definitely a workable idea. It wouldn't make clerics prepare all cure spells like they did in 2e but clerics would have to be careful to prepare a few.

2. Always worth doing--my observation of splatbook and d20 products is that they tend to be more powerful than PH stuff. That said, I think some of them are worth keeping. The elf domain from FR, for instance, I believe to be a balanced domain (It's really good if you're an archer but no more so than war and strength are for melee fighters).

3. Also a good idea but be careful how you handle this or you'll see a horde of "Lawful Neutral clerics of Wee Jas" or other "I'm going to pick a morally ambiguous or generally conflicted and/or ill-defined god so the DM doesn't screw my character over." Most gods are complex and nuanced--even in Greyhawk and FR. There would quite possibly be categories of spells they wouldn't grant (I can't see Lathander granting Death Knell or Animate Dead, for instance but those can be covered by extending the alignment prohibition on clerics (no casting a spell with alignment descriptor opposite to yours) to their deities as well (no casting a spell with an alignment description opposite to your deity's)). However, those categories would be fairly small in most cases.

 

[Technik4]

Oerpowered?

Ok, I will agree whole-heartedly that clerics are "powerful" or "more powerful" than they used to be. But "overpowered" takes things a little too far.

1) Most people (in my, albeit limited experience) dont *like* playing clerics. Therefore, the people that do, get to play a semi-powerful class.

2) The cleric is considered a "core" class. The only ones that should be considered to be "equally" powerful should be the fighter, rogue, and wizard. The others are subclasses, which should definitely be in the ballpark.

3) Buffs. All buffs are are a big sign saying "Dispel ME". A cleric that has had dispel magic cast on him in the midst of combat will agree that he is not nearly as good at fighting as the fighter, nor as good at blasting enemies as the wizard. As it should be.

4) Roleplaying restrictions. Any dm I've played with has made it at least evident that playing a lawful cleric is basically like belonging to an organization that you have no option to get out of, because presumably, you joined because your character should like it. The player may not like it, but the character probably does. The same is true to some extent with neutral orders, but not with chaotic. Chaotic clerics are somewhat free to do as they please, but they are still answerable to their god. Fighters, wizards, rogues, etc do not have some overlord dictating their actions, this makes them "less fun" to play.

I think the cleric is an excellent choice for a pc, and every party benefits from one, but I don't think they are overpowered.

Nik

PS- If you dont like some optional rules, ban the book if you are dm, or express concerns if you are a player.

 

[HellHound]

As for number 3, who cares if the God matters?

In the core rules, Clerics don't need gods, just beliefs. That's what made me love clerics again. Believe in something enough, and that is enough to grant divine magic.

"I believe that Might Makes Right and Magic is Mighty" says the Cleric of Strength and Magic.

 

[LightPhoenix]

As for number 3, who cares if the God matters?

I'll voice a similar sentiment, but in a broken record style:

Roleplaying restrictions do not balance mechanics.

That said, if choosing a god has "tangible" effects - like the Hold
Person described above, then that's fine.

[EDIT] Read the whole post LP, you'll sound smarter that way...

 

[Crothian]

I'll voice a similar sentiment, but in a broken record style:

Roleplaying restrictions do not balance mechanics.

The don't on paper because there are ways around them and people can and do ignore them. However, the DM of a specific game can balance mechanics with role playing becasue he is the enforcer of the rules.

 

[LightPhoenix]

The don't on paper because there are ways around them and people can and do ignore them. However, the DM of a specific game can balance mechanics with role playing becasue he is the enforcer of the rules.

On an individual basis, I agree, it is more than possible. However, I think that it is always more advantageous to balance mechanics mechanically.

 

[Crothian]

On an individual basis, I agree, it is more than possible. However, I think that it is always more advantageous to balance mechanics mechanically.

It is, I just want to make sure people realize they can balance the other way. You should never see it in a book, it's something that each indivdual DM needs to decide on his/her own if it is needed.

 

[Creamsteak]

I like spontaneously casting Domain spells, droping spontaneously casting cure spells, getting rid of the bonus Domain spell per day, decreasing the HD to a D4, decreasing the BAB to Wizard, and if you really want to weaken them: drop the 1/hour per level spells to 10 minutes/level.

That's my take.