balancing the Gnoll

[S'mon]

Half-orcs don't need an ECL; _Orcs_, OTOH, with their +4 STR (can be STR 22 at 1st level), certainly do...

Edit: Personally I think they only gave Orcs STR+4 so half-orc ST could be median between human & orcs, ie this was stupid (IRL a mix of eg cat & wildcat is often bigger than either parent). 1e orcs had average ST 12. ST+4 is ok for Uruk-Hai but OTT for regular orcs.

 

[Shin Okada]

Half-orcs don't need an ECL; _Orcs_, OTOH, with their +4 STR (can be STR 22 at 1st level), certainly do...

Don't forget -2 Wis (thus -1 to will save, spot & listen) and light sensitivity. When moderately clerver character group see Orcs, they cast spells with will saves, right?

 

[Stormrunner]

IMC, I give gnolls a bite attack (1d6, same as a hyena or wolf), and allow them to acquire the Scent ability by expending a feat slot.

 

[smootrk]

Gnolls, Half-Orc, and the like are meant to be excellent fighter types. The loss of INT limits Wizards, Rogues. The loss of CHA limits Bards, Rogues, Sorcerers, and even druid and rangers are limited with skills that are CHA based.

IMO the combo STR/CON may not be good enough to offset the INT/CHA problems in a well balanced campaign.... Now if the campaign is all combat - you might be right.

It is just my opinion but it just doesn't stack up that well to warrant the LA. Maybe with a couple of other abilities (and I like what is suggested so far) it deserves the LA of +1.

 

[S'mon]

Don't forget -2 Wis (thus -1 to will save, spot & listen) and light sensitivity. When moderately clerver character group see Orcs, they cast spells with will saves, right?

I'm not complaining about their CR as NPCs; mook orcs are a rather tough CR 1/2 - hobgoblins are much easier - but the terrible Will save does help with the Sleeping.
-2 WIS isn't a big deal with Point Buy though, just spend 2 points on WIS. Whereas getting STR from 18 to 22 is an awesome boost: 14 to 18 costs 10 points in point-buy, on the PB scale 18 to 22 is worth maybe 18 points (4, 4, 5, 5) if it were buyable. Whereas gnolls and bugbears are good but overpriced, as PCs orcs are awesome and cheap.

 

[Shin Okada]

-2 WIS isn't a big deal with Point Buy though, just spend 2 points on WIS. Whereas getting STR from 18 to 22 is an awesome boost: 14 to 18 costs 10 points in point-buy, on the PB scale 18 to 22 is worth maybe 18 points (4, 4, 5, 5) if it were buyable. Whereas gnolls and bugbears are good but overpriced, as PCs orcs are awesome and cheap.

Yeah. -2 Wis is not a big deal. But not a negligible one. I don't say Orcs to be a bad race (never). But also I don't think them to be stronger than core races. They have -2 wis, have light sensitivity (-1 to attack under the sun or when other party members are using Daylight) & lacking of Common as automatic language (and have low int = poor skill points). Combining those small disadvantages, I think they are well balanced to core races, including Half-Orc (especially, since Half-Orcs can take the path of Outcast Champion now).

Regarding Gnolls, I like the idea to allow them Scent as a feat choice. That will make them shine.

 

[Nifft]

It's suggested that you always look at LA +X as though the PC were optimized to whatever they're good at. Pixie is NOT worth much as a Fighter, but worth quite a lot as a Rogue.

So, half-orcs are good Fighters & Barbarians, and that's about it. They're "balanced" around that.

A PC-playable race of Gnolls, likewise, should be balanced around Fighters, Rangers & Barbarians -- not "balanced" by drawbacks that would only hurt Bards, Rogues, Wizards & Paladins.

-- N

 

[boredgremlin]

Hmm i might be wierd but i love gnolls. They are probably my favorite monstrous humanoid. This campaign is actually going to feature mainly gnolls as enemies at lower levels.

To make them worth a crap i gave them scent for free (dogs dont have to use a feat on it), a +2 to listen checks (sharp senses), a +4 bonus to survival checks (they live as hunter gatherers, something even most elves dont do), free endurance feat, and a bite attack for 1d6 like a dogs. I changed thier dark vision to lowlight vision because I feel it makes more sense for creatures who live outside, not in caves to have low light vision. It makes them into a vicious race of wilderness hunters and raiders. They make great rangers.

I also dont use them to charge in and die like idiots. They are hunters and fight like it. They use attalata's (primitive spear launchers), hit and run tactics, and traps. I based them off of american indians before the invention of bow. But bigger and meaner. Now my players are scared of gnolls, and until i explained that most places hang them on sight and offer scalp bounties for gnoll scalps they all wanted to play one. Even with the +1 LA.

 

[smootrk]

I was thinking about the bite attacks that a few have mentioned...

Although dogs/hyenas/wolves have d6 damage for bite attacks, thinking logically, I would think that since Gnolls have hands and walk upright, they would have lost some of the effectiveness of their natural attacks as they evolved. For instance, look at the differences between apes and humans (no offense to hardcore creationists).... as the human developed more tech and brain power, the physical traits of teeth, claws, etc. went away.

Thinking along those lines, I would still give the bite attack, but would probably drop to d4 damage. Any other thoughts on this or am I thinking too much into this?

 

[Kobold Stew]

Thinking along those lines, I would still give the bite attack, but would probably drop to d4 damage. Any other thoughts on this or am I thinking too much into this?

Nope, that was exaxctly my thought when I proposed it. a d6 bite for a medium size animal, diminished as the creature begins to walk upright, etc.

I'm seeing in the comments so far a general acceptance of the things I'm proposing: scent (as a feat, or granted), and the bite. No one has commented on the NA to +2, and no one has talked abouut the skills (something I have become more fervent about since II first made the post.)

I am not suggesting though that the hit dice be removed. Hit dice for larger humanoids is part of the game, and it says something (to me, at least) about the mass of the average creature, etc. (granted, what it says is challenged when they add half-giants with no hit dice, etc.; but the theory is there.) I don't want to rewrite the whole system; my concern is rather to come to terms with how out of whack I see the Gnoll being compared to the other creatures with hit dice. (those without will always be preferable for minmakxing purposes).

Thanks all for the thoughts so far. Keep em coming!

Stew.