Banishing Eldritch Blast

[FrogReaver]

A dragon sorcerer using firebolt at level 6 does just a little lower at will damage than eldritch blast up until level 11 but has overall better spell options and more spells overall and gets even better spell options by level 11.

 

[TwoSix]

Eldritch blast + hex doesn’t even out pace a PHB hunter ranger (without feats) in ranged attack damage till level 11.

Maybe we should stop focusing so much on level 11+ or 17+ and look at where the majority of people play games. You’ll usually find that dips and the OP at level 20 damage comparisons melt away and what you think of as the strongest based on that limited level 20 viewpoint isn’t really the case.

That's fair. Whenever I evaluate homebrew, I look at 2 major points; level 3 and level 10. I check level 3 builds to ensure it's playable for beginners, but also doesn't give out anything too strong when dipped.

Level 10 should be the level where everything works. Using base XP tables, you should spend more time at 10 than at any other level. Most classes have gotten a pretty strong mini-capstone by that point, if you wanted to get a 20 in a base stat it would be achievable by 10.

A dragon sorcerer using firebolt at level 6 does just a little lower at will damage than eldritch blast up until level 11 but has overall better spell options and more spells overall and gets even better spell options by level 11.

Sure, but the OP was looking more at intra-class options, not inter-class balance. I do agree that if Eldritch Blast is weakened, the Warlock should get buffs in other areas to compensate.

 

[Guest 6801328]

If the argument in favor of EB is that Warlocks need it to "keep up" with other classes dpr-wise, that just means Warlocks need to be buffed in other ways.

If halberds did (a lot) more damage than any other weapon in the hands of a Fighter, and Fighters could only keep up on dpr if they used a halberd, don't you think there would be a problem?

 

[Charlaquin]

Eldritch blast + hex doesn’t even out pace a PHB hunter ranger (without feats) in ranged attack damage till level 11.

Maybe we should stop focusing so much on level 11+ or 17+ and look at where the majority of people play games. You’ll usually find that dips and the OP at level 20 damage comparisons melt away and what you think of as the strongest based on that limited level 20 viewpoint isn’t really the case.

And with Feats, the ranger outpaces the Warlock during that time thanks to Sharpshooter and potentially Crossbow Expert.

The hype for Eldritch Blast is a little overblown for sure. But what it does do very well is provide a simple caster, for players who want to do magic but don’t want to deal with tracking spell slots. There are also plenty of other perfectly viable ways to build a Warlock.

 

[clearstream]

Eldritch blast + hex doesn’t even out pace a PHB hunter ranger (without feats) in ranged attack damage till level 11.

Do you mean a 7th level Ranger with Archery, longbow and Horde Breaker? Expecting AC 14.

Ranger (with foes clustered for Horde Breaker)
0.8*(3d8+12) = 25.5

Ranger (without foes clustered for Horde Breaker)
0.8*(2d8+8) = 13.6

Warlock (always)
0.6*(2d10+8+2d6) = 15.6

Maybe we should stop focusing so much on level 11+ or 17+ and look at where the majority of people play games. You’ll usually find that dips and the OP at level 20 damage comparisons melt away and what you think of as the strongest based on that limited level 20 viewpoint isn’t really the case.

I agree with you about level 20 (or 19, 18 etc), and certainly my discussion isn't based on what might happen at those rarefied heights!

The DMG suggests 4 sessions to level 4, then 3 sessions per level thereafter; with sessions expected to be about 4 hours long. We don't seem to hit that pace, as we just finished our 64th session of 5th edition with characters at level 12, i.e. about 5 sessions per level. I feel like the most relevant levels to balance for are 1-12. That will sustain the better part of a year's play. There could be an argument for stretching that out to level 15, as some published adventures run to there.

 

[Charlaquin]

Do you mean a 7th level Ranger with Archery, longbow and Horde Breaker? Expecting AC 14.

Ranger (with foes clustered for Horde Breaker)
0.8*(3d8+12) = 25.5

Ranger (without foes clustered for Horde Breaker)
0.8*(2d8+8) = 13.6

Warlock (always)
0.6*(2d10+8+2d6) = 15.6

You’re adding Hex damage to the warlock formula but not adding Hunter’s Mark damage to the Ranger’s formulae.

 

[Satyrn]

My thinking here is not at all about nerfing Warlock, but about broadening options. Could adding invocation benefits to any single-target damage cantrip do that?

This is the first change I try. I think it should work fine, since an unmodified eldritch blast is the strongest cantrip (maybe essentially tied with firebolt). An invocation-modified eldritch blast is still gonna be stronger than the other cantrips similarly modified, but those others might be closer enough to be worth using in more situations.

And I'd actually add it to multiple target damage cantrips, too. Acid Splash might prove a very interesting choice.

And I'd probably implement the change by rewriting the invocations so they interact with cantrips using both attack rolls and saves, and to squeeze out some combinations that feel odd. I'm not sure poison spray should work with Repelling Blast, for example.

 

[clearstream]

A dragon sorcerer using firebolt at level 6 does just a little lower at will damage than eldritch blast up until level 11 but has overall better spell options and more spells overall and gets even better spell options by level 11.

It's an interesting comparison and there are a few conditionals to consider.

Thinking about the damage, the force damage type and efficiency of multiple beams out-classes Fire Bolt in play by more than Eldritch Blast's greater damage alone might imply.

Thinking about other class features, rests and fight durations matter quite a lot. If adventuring days are a single encounter, then long-rest casters are stronger. And when fights stretch out, casters with more numerous slots have better endurance. At the other end of the spectrum, if adventuring days are say 3x short to 1x long (the DMG seems to recommend 6-8 short per long!), then at 6th, the Warlock is getting 8x 3rd level casts to the Sorcerer's 3x 3rd, 3x 2nd, 4x 1st. Eight highest level casts versus ten mixed.

 

[clearstream]

You’re adding Hex damage to the warlock formula but not adding Hunter’s Mark damage to the Ranger’s formulae.

Okay, if that's in your scenario let's count it in!

7th level Ranger with Archery, longbow, Horde Breaker and Hunter's Mark? 7th level Warlock with Agonizing Blast and Hex.
Expecting AC 14.

Ranger (with foes clustered for Horde Breaker)
0.8*(3d8+12+3d6) = 33.9

Ranger (without foes clustered for Horde Breaker)
0.8*(2d8+8+2d6) = 19.2

Warlock (always)
0.6*(2d10+8+2d6) = 15.6

This casts further light on the Warlock's addiction to Eldritch Blast. I'm not trying to say that EB is the strongest attack in the game. I'm saying that it's the only damage-dealing cantrip worth casting (in almost all situations) for a Warlock.

In terms of the question - is Warlock strong relative to Ranger - I think that can't be answered without also considering other features, such as the Warlocks casts that refresh on a short rest.

 

[TwoSix]

7th level Ranger with Archery, longbow, Horde Breaker and Hunter's Mark? 7th level Warlock with Agonizing Blast and Hex.
Expecting AC 14.

Ranger (with foes clustered for Horde Breaker)
0.8*(3d8+12+3d6) = 33.9

Ranger (without foes clustered for Horde Breaker)
0.8*(2d8+8+2d6) = 19.2

Warlock (always)
0.6*(2d10+8+2d6) = 15.6

I think there's a little math mistake here, the warlock's attack bonus should be +7, giving it a 70% hit chance.