Banishing Eldritch Blast

[clearstream]

Magic ammo? Just use a magic bow.

I wasn't aware of that ruling. It's clarified in the DMG errata that mundane ammunition fired from a magic bow counts as magic. That seems good to me.

The comparison is then as always, the caster's magical attacks are magical from day one. The archer needs to find a magic bow. That said, I feel like an archer at tier 3 should be assumed to have one!

 

[5ekyu]

I wasn't aware of that ruling. It's clarified in the DMG errata that mundane ammunition fired from a magic bow counts as magic. That seems good to me.

The comparison is then as always, the caster's magical attacks are magical from day one. The archer needs to find a magic bow. That said, I feel like an archer at tier 3 should be assumed to have one!

or at least a cleric who can spare him a 2nd level spell when they hit a resistant adversary that matters

 

[clearstream]

Unless a GM chooses his foes based on random die roll at CR4 (which iirc is neither required nor even recommended) then the nose count from MM have almost no relevance.

Its not how games are actually run in what i have seen.

One can consider or ignore whatever factors one likes. For me, when a quarter of foes have a feature, then it's reasonable to suppose that feature will appear in sessions at a higher rate then others that only one percent of foes have. That supposition tallies with our experience over 64 sessions, two years of play. Thus, for me, it is a factor I cannot easily ignore.

What weighs more heavily for me is [MENTION=6780961]Yunru[/MENTION] drawing attention to the DMG Errata, where ammunition from a magic ranged weapon is deemed magical. Which on the one hand makes one wonder what magical ammunition is for (!?) and on the other hand seems eminently sensible.

 

[Uchawi]

The DM should always mix things up in regards to combat and roleplay. That may not change decisions to focus on DPS or even roleplay abilities, but it does make the individual appreciate their choices when it works. It also shows it is not always the best solution, i.e. when the game mimics real life versus just a game, then the experience for everyone is that much better. So stop focusing on the class and more on the character (of the game)

 

[clearstream]

or at least a cleric who can spare him a 2nd level spell when they hit a resistant adversary that matters

We did have a character who tried Magic Weapon. I recall that the party used it once against some gargoyles. After a few sessions of preparing it, the character stopped using it.

I think this is due to the Concentration requirement. I suspect the spell is reasonable for a few levels (say 4-6): the cleric can prepare and cast enough spells they can cover some edge cases, and weapon-users don't yet have permanent magic weapons. Forge domain clerics have a corrected version - Blessing of the Forge! So it feels like an effect the designers believe should be in the game.

 

[clearstream]

So here is where I am this morning. Some posters might have misunderstood my goal as being about nerfing: to clarify, it's all about broadening viable strategies in response to concrete player concerns coming out of two years of regular play (64 sessions, two Warlocks).

Maledictions (this is a new class feature)
At 3rd level, your patron reveals the hidden power of certain cantrips—those for which you make a ranged spell attack or that have a saving throw. These cantrips become “maledictions”, that can be enhanced by the eldritch invocations available to you.

Agonizing Blast (pre-requisite: any malediction)
When you cast a malediction, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit or failed saving throw.

Eldritch Spear (pre-requisite: any malediction)
When you cast a malediction, its range is doubled.

Grasp of Hadar (pre-requisite: any malediction)
When a malediction you cast damages a creature for the first time in a turn, you can move that creature in a straight line 10 feet closer to you.

Lance of Lethargy (pre-requisite: any malediction)
When a malediction you cast damages a creature for the first time in a turn, you can reduce that creature’s speed by 10 feet until the start of your next turn.

Repelling Blast (pre-requisite: any malediction)
When a malediction you cast damages a creature for the first time in a turn, you can push that creature up to 10 feet away from you in a straight line.


Levels one and two (expected to be two sessions) suffer a nerf (no maledictions so can't meet the pre-requisites). Otherwise, posters have drawn attention to cross-class balance and other factors that make me focus more clearly on the core goal of giving Warlocks more viable strategies. Within the class, looking across cantrips, most feel castable (in comparison with EB) in tier 1 with these changes, but tail off markedly by tier 3. Perhaps the change needs to go to damage-per-die?

With Repelling Blast no longer flatly better than Lance and Grasp, I think those invocations become more viable, especially considering you could stack them to apply an effect to a target per beam. (Also, in play, possible 30' pushes on one creature of any size was warping scenarios.)

 

[5ekyu]

We did have a character who tried Magic Weapon. I recall that the party used it once against some gargoyles. After a few sessions of preparing it, the character stopped using it.

I think this is due to the Concentration requirement. I suspect the spell is reasonable for a few levels (say 4-6): the cleric can prepare and cast enough spells they can cover some edge cases, and weapon-users don't yet have permanent magic weapons. Forge domain clerics have a corrected version - Blessing of the Forge! So it feels like an effect the designers believe should be in the game.

I would suspect that use of and prep of many spells like magic weapon would vary by specific needs and see less use when that need is no longer there.

I bet few parties prepare darkvision sprlls if everybody has it, just like magic weapon will drift by the wayside once other options make it not needed.

But, net result is, the inclusion of circumstantial adjustments to comparisons based on specific combos of if this problem meets a specific lack of it's common counters rarely proves more than the basic fallacy of the comparisons - because so much depends on the challenges and their nature once you step outside the white room spreadsheet.

 

[clearstream]

I would suspect that use of and prep of many spells like magic weapon would vary by specific needs and see less use when that need is no longer there.

I bet few parties prepare darkvision sprlls if everybody has it, just like magic weapon will drift by the wayside once other options make it not needed.

But, net result is, the inclusion of circumstantial adjustments to comparisons based on specific combos of if this problem meets a specific lack of it's common counters rarely proves more than the basic fallacy of the comparisons - because so much depends on the challenges and their nature once you step outside the white room spreadsheet.

Indeed, and I have focused on what is happening at the table. Which doesn't chime with ignoring creature resistances. For our group, we found the force damage type very valuable - nothing ever resisted it. I wouldn't say the rates of resistance to other things were especially high, but they were present. Especially in encounters with tougher foes. The most common to appear were bludgeoning, piercing and slashing from non-magical weapons, and cold, fire and lightning. I think I gave one creature force resistance at some point, because it stood out so much as the perfect damage type. The other really good type was radiant. That stood out also, partly for its effects on some undead.

 

[5ekyu]

Indeed, and I have focused on what is happening at the table. Which doesn't chime with ignoring creature resistances. For our group, we found the force damage type very valuable - nothing ever resisted it. I wouldn't say the rates of resistance to other things were especially high, but they were present. Especially in encounters with tougher foes. The most common to appear were bludgeoning, piercing and slashing from non-magical weapons, and cold, fire and lightning. I think I gave one creature force resistance at some point, because it stood out so much as the perfect damage type. The other really good type was radiant. That stood out also, partly for its effects on some undead.

Of course you certainly looked at vulnerabilities too right? How many have regen that is stopped by force vs fire, acid, silver, etc?

But you get no argument from me that the choices in adversaries and types of challenges the GM makes will have drastic impact on balances. IMO it's the #1 by a mile factor in actual play at the table balance and imbalance.

That's why I pay so little to and credit almost no relevance to white room spreadsheet dpr rants.

 

[Pauln6]

Of course you certainly looked at vulnerabilities too right? How many have regen that is stopped by force vs fire, acid, silver, etc?

But you get no argument from me that the choices in adversaries and types of challenges the GM makes will have drastic impact on balances. IMO it's the #1 by a mile factor in actual play at the table balance and imbalance.

That's why I pay so little to and credit almost no relevance to white room spreadsheet dpr rants.

My custom Shadow Warlock has a tweaked Elemental Adept feat that turns her fire spells into necrotic fire (blackflame) so that those immune to fire still take half damage unless they are also immune or resistant to necrotic damage, and vice versa. It doesn't do much other than bypass some immunity to fire.