Barbarians of The Dark Forests

Yuan-Ti said:


I know they existed, but I never heard that they were common or that they were better than medieval longbows. They were also not limited to England. Still, it seems unlikely that the barbarians of the "dark forest" would use them. Short bows make more sense for a "uncivilized" society, but of course you could always make exceptions.

AFAIK longbows dominate the finding from England. Of course one must use such finds with care, as most are from graves where the most impressive weapons would be placed.

I'm also pretty sure that most arrowheads found are for hunting heavy game (probably also includes your neighbours :)). I'll have a look into my books this afternoon.

Bows aside, my biggest gripe is the amount of armor (and metal weapons) available to the Dark Forest Barbarians. Mining and refining materials in large quantities require a high level of specialization and organization, something very uncommon in traditional "barbarian" societies. I would be more confortable with a bigger focus on spears (THE weapon of the neolithic) and leather/hide armors. Chiefs are of course not limited by these rules.

.Ziggy
 
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Greetings!

Very interesting responses!:) Very cool, very cool indeed. Yeah, I'm kinda mixed on some of the approaches. I have some other tribes already drawn up, but I sometimes like to create whole new groups of people that migrate into different areas to shake things up, and add not only verissimilitude, but also variety to the local environment.

This process of course, can not only change things in significant ways politically for the campaign area in general, but it may also have an impact on the player-characters when they encounter such a group of new tribes migrating into the area. Fun stuff to be sure!:) Indeed, I'm thinking I may add this to another volume of the *SHARK'S Notebooks*:)

It's interesting that the perception is that horses don't really belong with forest-dwelling tribes, however it is interesting to note that there is a good deal of historical evidence to suggest that that may not be accurate. In studying various accounts of the early expansion of Rome into Cisalpine Gaul, and later, Caesar's march through Gaul and his subsequent campaigns there, it is a salient feature that the Romans enlist the alliance of tribes of forest-dwelling German Barbarians that are even then famous for their ferocity in combat, *and* their skill as horsemen! In fact, there were several battles where Caesar deployed the groups of ruthless German horsemen to excellent effect against the local Celtic tribes! In addition, it seems that Caesar desired to enlist the assistance of more of these horse-riding barbarians from the dark forests along the Rhine!:) I thought it was pretty interesting.

Hmmm...indeed, on another note, it seems that the various Germanic tribes that the Roman Empire dealt with throughout Germany for some 600 years changed fairly rapidly, and were of different types, even though they were culturally similar or the same. It would seem that there were German tribes that when Rome first encountered them, were literally quite naked, savage, and living in the Stone Age. Later, by the 2nd-4th century AD, many Germanic barbarian tribes were all riding powerful warhorses, wearing chain-mail, and being heavily armed with numerous weapons. The Germans, like their Celtic cousins, were known to have a good reputation for mining, as well as weaponsmithing and armour-smithing. The Germans ability in making longswords of fine quality is particularly noted. There are numerous accounts of the Celts being premier weapon and armour smiths, being so famous to include the origination of chainmail. Certainly, the Assyrians were also well-known armourers, and while there is abundant evidence of such in the lands of the Celts, as well as the Middle-East, it seems that it may be a case of Independent Invention, rather than a cut and dried case of "either or".

Another Germanic barbarian tribe, the Franks, the antecedents to the modern day French, mixed with the Celtic Gauls of the region--were famous for their horsemanship, as well as their warriors fighting with battleaxes! This weapon seemed so ubiquitous amongst the Franks that a "Frankish Battleaxe" became a culturally famous, and iconic weapon during the era.

Something that I find quite interesting is imagining the time of transition for one or more of these tribes--technologically and culturally. Some historians have noted that the Germanic barbarians seemed to pioneer the feudal system, and also made huge initiatives in changing the standard of warfare with the dominant transition of the mounted armoured horsemen. This was especially apparent at Adrianople, in AD 378, where several entire Roamn Legions, some 40,000 troops, with 10,000 cavalry, were annihilated by a barbarian force of some 60,000 warriors, with some 20,000 or more being cavalry. A larger total of some 200,000 barbarians, representing more of the tribe, additional warriors, etc. may also have taken part, as the battle erupted when the Romans arrogantly marched into the powerful tribe's major encampment areas for the whole tribe, with thousands of women and children present. Apparently, the Romans had arrived when the majority of the German warriros were off tending to the herds of horses, in preparation for potential battle. In this case, the Romans gained the element of surprise over the Goths, but it was not to last long. The Goths were so heavily mounted that they soon arrived on the scene, and in the midst of their women and children, apparently just went berzerk. The Roman Emperor Valens, fresh from campaigning against the Persians, died fighting in this horrific battle. The encircled Romans, some 50,000 strong, were utterly annihilated by the ferocious Germans. This battle was an absolute disaster for the Roman army, and it sent shock-waves throughout the empire. It had perhaps a singular effect psychologically in being the larger impetus in changing the Roman style of war from being an army of infantry, to an army of horsemen.

This trend can be seen by the dramatic change and composition of Roman military forces soon after, as well as the formation of increasingly armoured Cataphracts and knights throughout the empire, being organized in units of powerful shock cavalry in order to better fight against the mounted hordes. Interesting indeed.

It would seem that differences would be apparent based on current technological advancement and so on. There does seem to be a broad range of armour and weaponry, as well as equipment. Great stuff!:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

SHARK
Caesar's march through Gaul and his subsequent campaigns there, it is a salient feature that the Romans enlist the alliance of tribes of forest-dwelling German Barbarians that are even then famous for their ferocity in combat, *and* their skill as horsemen! In fact, there were several battles where Caesar deployed the groups of ruthless German horsemen to excellent effect against the local Celtic tribes!
My mind is .... (forgot the word)

It would seem that there were German tribes that when Rome first encountered them, were literally quite naked, savage, and living in the Stone Age. Later, by the 2nd-4th century AD, many Germanic barbarian tribes were all riding powerful warhorses, wearing chain-mail, and being heavily armed with numerous weapons. The Germans, like their Celtic cousins, were known to have a good reputation for mining, as well as weaponsmithing and armour-smithing. The Germans ability in making longswords of fine quality is particularly noted. There are numerous accounts of the Celts being premier weapon and armour smiths, being so famous to include the origination of chainmail
No not SA savages, that celts and germans did often fight naked could be an religious act, or of macho or such.
And armour come later or was more common because against the romans it was needed, and only used by the wealthy.
After the conquering of Gaul the legions changed their Bronce helmets agains t steel/iron helmets, even if it was part of their better pay and better manufacturing of the Imperial times it wasn`t done without reason.


Another Germanic barbarian tribe, the Franks, the antecedents to the modern day French, mixed with the Celtic Gauls of the region--were famous for their horsemanship, as well as their warriors fighting with battleaxes! This weapon seemed so ubiquitous amongst the Franks that a "Frankish Battleaxe" became a culturally famous, and iconic weapon during the era.
The Goth and the francs were fierce enemies, in italy, spain and francia they warred often.
The eastgoths choose to go to the bycantines to fight with their old enemies against this honorless treacherous foe, and the westgoths preferred the saracens before the francs.
The frankish axe was the francisca, a throwing axe, but i didn`t doub it could be used to good effect in melee(as a n handaxe).,
 

Greetings!

Sword Dancer wrote:

"My mind is .... (forgot the word)"
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Very funny Sword Dancer!:) You have made some interesting points, to be sure. The Franks and the Goths didn't like each other, did they? Do you think that the traditional German/French rivalry goes back *this* far? I'm not sure, but it seems possible, eh?:)

Yes, also after the campaign in Gaul, the Roman helmets were changed, because of the experience with superior Celtic helmets. The Romans adapted some of the stylistic and technological differences, and forever after, the Roman helmets were not only more distinctive, but also significantly more effective. Interestingly, the Romans from early experiences in fighting barbarian tribes in the Iberian penensula, adopted the Gladius from such a powerful design of the indiginous tribes of Iberia. (Spain) The Romans were eager to adapt their skills and techniques to anything that they encountered that was superior, which they often combined with their own elements and style into something superior.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

SHARK said:
The Franks and the Goths didn't like each other, did they? Do you think that the traditional German/French rivalry goes back *this* far? I'm not sure, but it seems possible, eh?

No after the francs had broken their pacts with the eastgoths during the italian war, they didn`t like them, with their attacks under the flag of allie slaughtering their children.
The west goths had their fair share of war.
I think the rest of the eastgoths goes to spain to unite with their relative, i believe this was an theory.

But we germans had no gothic ancestors, saxon, alemannic and bajuvares(no i had not wrote this), and the slavic on the other side of the elbe, prussians and others.

I think this rivality goes back to the french allies with the turks, the sieges of vienna.
The wars of Luis XIV the sun king and the napoleonic wars.
But this yesterday.
The house habsburg had fought the turks in middle sea and in austria/east europe/balkan.

BTw the roman saddle is also a celtic in origin.


They took teh persian or parthic cataphractii and developed the clibernarrii armed them with pikes.
 

Ziggy said:


. Mining and refining materials in large quantities require a high level of specialization and organization, something very uncommon in traditional "barbarian" societies. I would be more confortable with a bigger focus on spears (THE weapon of the neolithic) and leather/hide armors. Chiefs are of course not limited by these rules.

.Ziggy

german comes from ger man.
ger is a spear the germanic warriors used often.
A sword was a prized treasure, often an family heirloom.
 

SHARK said:
... a screaming, burning death.

Aah - vintage Shark.

As usual Shark, you've managed to entertain, educate and initiate us further into your brilliant campaign world.

You always ask the right questions to get my creative juices flowing.

You're an inspiration.

Always faithful,
Snoweel
 

Darraketh said:
The presence of the more sophisticated arms and armor would seem to suggest a level of civilization in which specialization has occurred.

This is more than true.

However, if I may share, and let's face it, who's gonna stop me, but in my campaign, I have a barbaric culture who live among the ruins of an ancient, forgotten and technically advanced (ie. capable of forging masterwork arms and armour) civilisation.

I'm still trying to decide if they're descended from said civilisation or if they've come along later and looted the graves of the warrior-aristocracy.
 

german comes from ger man.
ger is a spear the germanic warriors used often.
A sword was a prized treasure, often an family heirloom.

As an aside, why is a sword such a treasured weapon when it doesn't seem as effective as a spear in most cases? (Don't get me wrong, I love swords, but spears seem superior for most uses.)
 

I suppose “barbarian” is a relative term. It appears that it was more of a slur in most cases rather than an anthropological classification. Nonetheless I prefer to use it as such when detailing a campaign world.
 

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