D&D (2024) Bard DON"T Suck. Tier List.

[Ruin Explorer]

Three extra attacks per long rest at level 3 and four at level 4 is non-trivial. Three or four attacks per short rest pretty good from when you get Font of Inspiration at level 5. And remember you also get the unarmoured defence at the same level.

Remember that you can also make an attack as part of this reaction thanks to Agile Strikes.

On the other hand a d8 to everyone's initiative can be stunningly good. If monsters last three rounds of PC attacks on average then beating them on initiative is the difference between them getting three rounds off and getting two. This is one of the strongest tier 2 abilties in the game, rivalled only by paladin auras.

I have difficulty not rating this as at worst an A-tier subclass. Four abilities for level 2, two of them pretty good? Two for level 6, one of them S-tier and the other just pretty good?

Yeah I value @Zardnaar's thoughts on this and threads in general, but I think you're a bit closer to the mark here.

I mean, if we're being very objective, it's very hard to see how on an S to D scale, any Bard subclass that didn't actively wreck a feature or three could be less than a B, simply because the Bard chassis is that good (like most full casters in 5E, possibly all full casters in 5E 2024). Especially with Tandem Footwork.

I do think there's some needless finickity-ness of design in the Dance bard, and they should probably just straight-up get an extra attack with unarmed only at L6, but C seems a bit silly. Especially as we'll be looking at the Cs of some other classes which are just worse than that.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah I value @Zardnaar's thoughts on this and threads in general, but I think you're a bit closer to the mark here.

I mean, if we're being very objective, it's very hard to see how on an S to D scale, any Bard subclass that didn't actively wreck a feature or three could be less than a B, simply because the Bard chassis is that good (like most full casters in 5E, possibly all full casters in 5E 2024). Especially with Tandem Footwork.

I do think there's some needless finickity-ness of design in the Dance bard, and they should probably just straight-up get an extra attack with unarmed only at L6, but C seems a bit silly. Especially as we'll be looking at the Cs of some other classes which are just worse than that.

I gave it a C because janking around with a mediocre attack makes you worse at what you should focus on. And it doesn't do a particularly good job at it.

You're probably better off boosting the groups initiative with your bard dice.

It's arguably worse than the old swords bard and I have seen one of them used.

 

[Ashrym]

College of Glamour.

Level 3.
Beguiling Magic.

Two spells known both of them good. Cast an illusion of enchantment spell and free fear or charmed effect. Free use once per long rest but you can recharge it via a bard dice. Out of combat utility as well and you got charm person for free. Big thumbs up powerful, fun and comvat/utility.

Mantle of Inspiration

And more secret sauce. Spend bard dice and assign a generous amount of temporary hit points. And free movement costing your reaction without triggering AoEs. Doesn't scale great but at low levels that's a lot of temporary hit points at a low opportunity cost. Great ability.

At 3rd level I think glamour bard is the winner here. AC bonus is good and cutting words is useful but glamour does seem like the best at this level.

Mantle of Majesty.

You get command for free and can cast it as a bonus action. Every round for a minute. Anyone charmed by you automatically fails their save. Recharges if you sacrifice a level 3+ spell slot. Very good ability that you don't get to use much without sacrificing spell slots.

Excellent ability. 6th level is strong for all bard subclasses though.

Level 14.

Unbreakable Majesty.

Bonus action ability. Whenever someone attacks you for the first time charisma save or miss. You probably don't want to be near the front lines anyway but it's an OK ability.

They don't need to attack at melee for this to work. It's useful from ranged attacks.

It also stacks with vicious mockery. Vicious mockery gives disadvantage and unbreakable majesty works against the first hit for a combo move. Not always used because by then there's a lot of spell options but it might come in handy at times.

Overall the glamour bard is very strong and front loaded at level 3 and 6. Did I mention the art? Lots of fun. I would be happy to play this an I'll give it an A. You're still a bard and it's a very strong offering.

3rd and 6th levels are the important ones. ;-)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I gave it a C because janking around with a mediocre attack makes you worse at what you should focus on. And it doesn't do a particularly good job at it.

I feel like if we rate classes based on how you could screw up with them, rather than using them in an at least semi-optimal, sensible way, we're rating them in a different way to the way we rated 2014 classes. Like, Paladins are really going to have to be low-tier on that basis, because using the wrong smite in 2024 is basically encouraged, costs a lot, and really doesn't help you. Likewise the Rogue's Cunning Strike should basically be seen as a potential negative factor rather than a positive one on that basis, because it has several options you could use really badly, just lowering your DPR for no real gain. This is only going to be compounded by a myriad of subclass features across countless subclasses which could make your PC worse if you use them aggressively.

So I think if we go with "You might be a dummy and pursue a suboptimal approach!" is going to make your analysis here way, way harder. Whereas if you only look at a subclass being played relatively optimally, it'll be pretty straightforward.

Anyone playing a Dance Bard minimally optimally is going to make it at least a B. But there are subclasses out there, where, even optimal play may well be a C or D. Just not Bard subclasses.

It's arguably worse than the old swords bard and I have seen one of them used.

I feel like that would be a hard argument to make convincingly, given Tandem Footwork exists. And I don't think Swords Bards were particularly bad because again, they were still Bards - full casters with a decent spell list, a useful primary stat, and a ton of baseline utility.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

College of Dance.

Great artwork the Dance bard is a new archetype. It's a somewhat confusing Mish mash of abilities. I think it's meant to be another skirmish type spellcaster but has some issues.

Level 3
Dance Virtuoso
Advantage on perform checks. Thematic but it's mostly a ribbon ability. But you have 3 more abilities.

Unarmored Defense
This ability essentially gives you 15 or 16 AC right out the gate and theoretically scales up to around 20. Good ability we have seen similar abilities before in 2014 and on a Bard it's even better.

Agile Strikes.
Agile Strikes.
Let's you gain an unarmed attack equal to your bard dice and a free strike when you spend a bard dice. Problem is you don't get that many bard dice and you're better off using a dagger and true strike. Translation mediocre ability that in effect gives you an occasional extra attack. Bards don't really deal much damage in 5E and this doesn't fix that.

Bardic Damage.

Your unarmed Strikes deal danage equal to your bard dice. Your bard dice do not deal that much damage. Meh.

Level 6

Inspiring movement
As a reaction spend a bard dice, move and let an ally move as well. No attacks of opportunity made. Potentially great generally always useful kinda dependent on a battlemat though.

Tandem Footwork.

Basically spend a bard dice during initiative to buff your allies initiative. Theoretically it triggers agile strikes but it's unlikely/situational you'll have anyone to target. Great ability but it drains your limited bard dice even faster and seems to be an anti combo with agile Strikes for the most part.

Level 14
Leading Evasion.

Evasion for you and any allies within 5'. Decent ability when it matters but it's sitional and comes late. It's not bad as such but eh.

So that's it. This archetype is a bit of a hot mess. It's main ability is to limited and doesn't play nice with its level 6 ability. The archetype really needs the Valor bard multi attack ability. I'm giving it the C tier and it avoids the D tier because Inspiring Movement and unarmored Defense are good abilities. And you're still a primary caster.

Bit of a shame especially since the Valor bard got buffed and the next bard that's getting rated. Comparatively this is the first 2024 dud as such.

I still hate that this exists bevause even if it's weak, it gives bard few monk abilities it couldn'y easily get before. And with how powerful base Bard is, I know it's only a matter of time before someone minmaxes this into "Do everything Monk does, but better" build.

 

[Zardnaar]

At 3rd level I think glamour bard is the winner here. AC bonus is good and cutting words is useful but glamour does seem like the best at this level.



Excellent ability. 6th level is strong for all bard subclasses though.



They don't need to attack at melee for this to work. It's useful from ranged attacks.

It also stacks with vicious mockery. Vicious mockery gives disadvantage and unbreakable majesty works against the first hit for a combo move. Not always used because by then there's a lot of spell options but it might come in handy at times.



3rd and 6th levels are the important ones. ;-)

Level 3 to 6 glamour is very very good.

 

[mellored]

I house ruled it so it won't work but Dance can...

1. Tandem Footwork (+Alert) to let the cleric get Spiritual Guardians up sooner.
2. Reaction Inspiring Footwork to move the cleric on the Monsters turn.
3. Bonus action Agile Strike to grapple and move the cleric on your turn.
4. Action to cast a spell.

That's 9d8 damage at the end of your first turn. And you still have your spell.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

When reading the bardic subclasses, one should note that the dance bard has one more level 6 feature than all the others and one less level 3 feature.

Probably their reaction feature should be level 3, not 6. Would make the dance bard a bit better. Still not convinced it is bad though. Just a bit worse than the others.

 

[ECMO3]

I still hate that this exists bevause even if it's weak, it gives bard few monk abilities it couldn'y easily get before. And with how powerful base Bard is, I know it's only a matter of time before someone minmaxes this into "Do everything Monk does, but better" build.

I have tried to figure out how to min max this and I can't come up with a good build, at least not one that is mostly Bard. The closest I have come is a 16 Dex, max Charisma Paladin 1/Warlock 2/Dance Bard X who plays as a primary melee Gish. That should work ok, but not really great and in such a build the unarmed strikes are not even doing a whole lot for you, you are mostly relying on Agonizing Truestrike, Agonizing Green Flame Blade, weapon mastery and Paladin smites in melee. I also looked at a Bladesinger build, but that requires a lot of Bladesinger levels to work well.

A big problem is the unarmed strikes are not very powerful to start with, then you can't use them with truestrike, making them substantially worse as an action than just charging in with a dagger or spear and finally you only have a few of them as a bonus action.

A Monk is a lot more than just unarmed strikes and a Monk's unarmed strikes are better than a Dance Bards even if they lag in damage at some levels. A Monk gets to do Force damage, gets to Flurry of Blows, gets to stunning strike, gets extra attack and gets unlimited uses as a bonus aciton. Without those things a Monk's unarmed strikes would be pathetically weak, which is where the Dance Bard's are.

 

[Zardnaar]

I have tried to figure out how to min max this and I can't come up with a good build, at least not one that is mostly Bard. The closest I have come is a 16 Dex, max Charisma Paladin 1/Warlock 2/Dance Bard X who plays as a primary melee Gish. That should work ok, but not really great and in such a build the unarmed strikes are not even doing a whole lot for you, you are mostly relying on Agonizing Truestrike, Agonizing Green Flame Blade. mastery and smites in melee.

A big problem is the unarmed strikes are not very powerful to start with, then you can't use them with truestrike, making them substantially worse as an action than just charging in with a dagger or spear and finally you only have a few of them as a bonus action.

A Monk is a lot more than just unarmed strikes and a Monk's unarmed strikes are better than a Dance Bards even if they lag in damage at some levels. A Monk gets to do Force damage, gets to Flurry of Blows, gets to stunning strike, gets extra attack and gets unlimited uses as a bonus aciton. Without those things a Monk's unarmed strikes would be pathetically weak, which is where the Dance Bard's are.

I saw that thread and tried doing something similar. Then realized I could ro the same thing with a better bard.
AC is nice but valor bards beat that as well.