D&D (2024) Bastion rules: every pub owner is at least 13th level

I don't think you will see much in the way of "mundane" options, simply because 5E has been consistently moving away from game elements that are not steeped in magic or at least "specialness." I don't think owning a bar without magical food on the menu and a portal to the Underdeep in the basement is something most players want.
It's entirely possible I won't see options I like in the final product. All I can do is express my preferences in WotC's surveys, encourage others to do the same, and hope for the best.

I do hope D&D 2024 has rules I enjoy, because that would make it easier to find a gaming group. But I know that may not be the case. Worst case scenario, I don't like the 2024 rules, so I spend a weekend cranking out a 5e clone that meets my needs and go looking for a group interested in playtesting something that isn't mainstream D&D.
 

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I've got to say, one complaint I have these rules is that they don't feel linked to the game world at all. They're just arbitrary 'player mechanics'. Like the facilities being unable to be bought but materialise onto your fort when you level up.

5e has always had this problem, but it's been doubled down on over its lifetime. Players are using such a different set of often arbitrary rules compared to the rest of the world.
Of course they aren't linked with the game world. Almost no game mechanics throughout D&D are. I mean I'll keep saying it until people start actually realizing or accepting it... but the game mechanics of D&D exist to play the game of Dungeons & Dragons. The board game of Dungeons & Dragons. Where you roll dice to get better numbers compared to other people who are rolling dice trying to get better than you.

And while the results of those dice rolls gets translated into a semblance of story beats... those rolls are not in any meaningful way, shape, or form actually illustrations of the narrative of the world being played in. And if (general) you try and connect the two... you will ALWAYS find the disconnects between how the game mechanics work (for the board game to play correctly) and the flavor and story of the campaign you are playing in.

These Bastion rules now exist for there to be a downtime "mini-game" for players to play in building and running some function hall. But they do not illustrate the actual lived-in experience of owning and running a function hall within the campaign story. Because as everyone has been saying... you can own a function hall at any level if you, the other players, and the DM all work together to weave that story... or a character can do so without even needing PC levels-- in the narrative of the campaign, some NPC just does it. No game rules necessary, the DM just says "Bob The Bartender owns and runs a pub."

But because D&D is in fact a game and not just an improvised world-building and story exercise... the designers of D&D will occasionally make up game rules that allow a person to "play" them, as a way to gamify what would otherwise be done by players improvising together in world-building and story. The designers of D&D do not expect their players to be competent long-form improvisers who can actually create pubs in their stories whenever they want and create drama from it out of whole cloth. That asks way too much from players. Which is why they gamify it-- to allow the non-long-form improvisors out there to recreate these stories using game rules to a certain, small extent. But those game rules are just a facsimile of actual narrative storytelling. They are not actually a part of it because they are merely a game, and not a story.

Which means if a person finds the Bastion game rules disconnected from their story... then they probably shouldn't use them. And hopefully... the players at that table are competent and confident long-form improvisors that they all can just "make it up" within their campaign's narrative and not need "game rules" to follow in order to do so. If they can do that... then their party can start their games owning a keep even at Level 1 and just playing sensibly, equitably and not try to rig the story for their own benefit.
 

Is your problem with the Bastion rules that you believe WotC will remove the actual downtime rules and replace them with Bastions? Why do you think they would do that?
My concern would be that the Bastion rules get all the designer attention at the expense of the other downtime rules, yes. Do I know for sure that will happen? No. That being said, I have no evidence that the existing downtime rules are being expanded, and I have documented written evidence that Bastion rules are being developed. I can only make educated guesses based on the evidence at my disposal.
 

Your observation speaks to my problem with the Bastion rules. Where are the rules for the run-of-the-mill pub?
Chapter 6 of the DMG has the guidelines for run-of-the-mill business, etc. In "Reccuring Expenses" and "Downtime Activities." I believe Xanthar's also expands on the downtime actives.

For Example:

Maintenance Costs​

PropertyTotal Cost
per Day
Skilled
Hirelings
Untrained
Hirelings
Abbey20 gp525
Farm5 sp12
Guildhall, town or city5 gp53
Inn, rural roadside10 gp510
Inn, town or city5 gp15
Keep or small castle100 gp5050
Lodge, hunting5 sp1
Noble estate10 gp315
Outpost or fort50 gp2040
Palace or large castle400 gp200100
Shop2 gp1
Temple, large25 gp1010
Temple, small1 gp2
Tower, fortified25 gp10
Trading post10 gp42

Building a Stronghold​

StrongholdConstruction CostConstruction Time
Abbey50,000 gp400 days
Guildhall, town or city5,000 gp60 days
Keep or small castle50,000 gp400 days
Noble estate with manor25,000 gp150 days
Outpost or fort15,000 gp100 days
Palace or large castle500,000 gp1,200 days
Temple50,000 gp400 days
Tower, fortified15,000 gp100 days
Trading post5,000 gp60 days

Running a Business​

d100 + DaysResult
01–20You must pay one and a half times the business’s maintenance cost for each of the days.
21–30You must pay the business’s full maintenance cost for each of the days.
31–40You must pay half the business’s maintenance cost for each of the days. Profits cover the other half.
41–60The business covers its own maintenance cost for each of the days.
61–80The business covers its own maintenance cost for each of the days. It earns a profit of 1d6 × 5 gp.
81–90The business covers its own maintenance cost for each of the days. It earns a profit of 2d8 × 5 gp.
91 or higherThe business covers its own maintenance cost for each of the days. It earns a profit of 3d10 × 5 gp.
 

It's entirely possible I won't see options I like in the final product. All I can do is express my preferences in WotC's surveys, encourage others to do the same, and hope for the best.

I do hope D&D 2024 has rules I enjoy, because that would make it easier to find a gaming group. But I know that may not be the case. Worst case scenario, I don't like the 2024 rules, so I spend a weekend cranking out a 5e clone that meets my needs and go looking for a group interested in playtesting something that isn't mainstream D&D.
Good deal! To be honest, I don't expect will have that hard a time finding a 2014 5e group even after all this. Who says every group is just going to drop their books and buy all new ones, especially since the actual changes have been getting fewer and fewer?
 

Of course they aren't linked with the game world. Almost no game mechanics throughout D&D are. I mean I'll keep saying it until people start actually realizing or accepting it... but the game mechanics of D&D exist to play the game of Dungeons & Dragons. The board game of Dungeons & Dragons. Where you roll dice to get better numbers compared to other people who are rolling dice trying to get better than you.

And while the results of those dice rolls gets translated into a semblance of story beats... those rolls are not in any meaningful way, shape, or form actually illustrations of the narrative of the world being played in. And if (general) you try and connect the two... you will ALWAYS find the disconnects between how the game mechanics work (for the board game to play correctly) and the flavor and story of the campaign you are playing in.

These Bastion rules now exist for there to be a downtime "mini-game" for players to play in building and running some function hall. But they do not illustrate the actual lived-in experience of owning and running a function hall within the campaign story. Because as everyone has been saying... you can own a function hall at any level if you, the other players, and the DM all work together to weave that story... or a character can do so without even needing PC levels-- in the narrative of the campaign, some NPC just does it. No game rules necessary, the DM just says "Bob The Bartender owns and runs a pub."

But because D&D is in fact a game and not just an improvised world-building and story exercise... the designers of D&D will occasionally make up game rules that allow a person to "play" them, as a way to gamify what would otherwise be done by players improvising together in world-building and story. The designers of D&D do not expect their players to be competent long-form improvisers who can actually create pubs in their stories whenever they want and create drama from it out of whole cloth. That asks way too much from players. Which is why they gamify it-- to allow the non-long-form improvisors out there to recreate these stories using game rules to a certain, small extent. But those game rules are just a facsimile of actual narrative storytelling. They are not actually a part of it because they are merely a game, and not a story.

Which means if a person finds the Bastion game rules disconnected from their story... then they probably shouldn't use them. And hopefully... the players at that table are competent and confident long-form improvisors that they all can just "make it up" within their campaign's narrative and not need "game rules" to follow in order to do so. If they can do that... then their party can start their games owning a keep even at Level 1 and just playing sensibly, equitably and not try to rig the story for their own benefit.
Sure. Or they could use rules for such things that suit them better. You can like the idea of something but prefer a different implementation of it.
 

They could still presumably still build some type of Castle and try to clear the land though? (Does the DMG have level limits on either of those?) But there is nothing to make it a "freehold" in the sense of getting the bullets numbered 1 and 2 in the book below what you quoted.
This is what the 1e DMG says on building castles/strongholds.

"When player characters reach upper levels and decide to establish a stronghold and rule a territory, you must have fairly detailed information on hand to enable this to take place."

You could certainly homebrew it differently, but RAW was that you needed to be 9th(upper levels) level.
 

My concern would be that the Bastion rules get all the designer attention at the expense of the other downtime rules, yes. Do I know for sure that will happen? No. That being said, I have no evidence that the existing downtime rules are being expanded, and I have documented written evidence that Bastion rules are being developed. I can only make educated guesses based on the evidence at my disposal.

The Downtime rules were further developed/expanded on in Xanthar's...
 


This one sentence from the new Bastion rules guarantees those rules will never see use in my game: "Unlike basic facilities, special facilities can’t be bought; a character gains them through level advancement." Note that "special facilities" include Stables (minimum character level 9th) and Pubs (minimum character level 13th). So why can't my 8th-level character with 10,000 gp build Stables? I can't think of any reasonable in-game explanation. Some sort of multiverse-wide zoning restriction, maybe?

The real answer is that Stables provide arbitrary in-game mechanical benefits not appropriate for characters below 9th-level. Stables generate Bastion Points, or BP (not to be confused with the BP you use to build things in Paizo's Kingmaker adventure path). For various implausible reasons, characters can use BP to acquire magic items. Apparently, Stables (with a capitol "S") are some sort of magical Platonic object which exist beyond the confines of Euclidean geometry and in-game economics.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand that D&D rules aren't designed to model any sort of economy in a realistic way. In-game transactions are just abstractions designed to make for entertaining game-play. That being said, I do at least expect there to be some sort of in-game currency which characters can use to purchase or build everyday objects like stables and pubs. In my humble opinion, Stables and Pubs shouldn't be de facto magic items which exist outside the gold-piece economy.
You could stop complaining and just lower the level man, it isn't that serious.
 

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