BattleStar Galactica:Season 3.0--11/10/06--Arc 6

Aesthetic Monk said:
Seems like RDM's failure as a dramatist here was to assume that viewers would have a reflexive revulsion at the thought of genocide.

While, as I said above, I don't agree with the genocide, that is an interesting statement to make.

I wouldn't say the failure was to assume people would diagree with genocide, far from it. The failure was to build up a scenario where genocide is a serious moral quandary, both for fictional crew and for the viewers at home. At this point in time, the Cylons have destroyed not one, but twelve Earth-like planets, the majority of whom were likely civilians. The Cylons then hunted the remaining fleet, sabotaging and terrorizing them with the sole purpose of destroying them. When the Cylons did feel like talking, what we got instead was a glorified concentration camp called New Caprica. So I can completely understand why the supposed moral quandary really isn't much of one - the BSG staff have made the Cylons completely and utterly unsympathetic.

I'm glad you said this Aesthetic Monk, because I think in responding to this, I've come to realize exactly why I didn't like this episode so much. There's just no tension, no drama, because there isn't any real conflict, moral or otherwise. There's perceived conflict, I think we all know what it was supposed to be. I just don't think it works, because of what I said above.
 

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But see, that's exactly the problem Aesthetic Monk was bringing up (or at least I am): I thought it wasn't much of a moral quandary either, but because it was utterly and without question wrong to commit genocide. And so, with such strongly-held and differing opinions, it potentially becomes interesting.

(Probably except for the part where a good chunk of the pro-genocide people consider the anti folks weak and stupid, and a good chunk of the anti-genocide people consider the pro folks barbaric and idiotic, not making for all that great of a conversation topic.)

I've already lost a lot of respect for Roslin over the seasons, but she sealed the deal here.
 

Don't forget the late President Adar - who precided Roslyn - triedto surrender to the Cylon's, and they responded by using more nukes than they had already. We're not talking a Braves v. Texas Rangers thing here or even a Russians v. U.S.A. We're talking about totemic opposition.

How do you think this will be resolved, aside from the destruction of one side or the other? Or will it simply go on forever and ever and ever?

Genocide is underrated tactically and stratigically and over condemned morally and ethically.
 

The Grumpy Celt said:
Don't forget the late President Adar - who precided Roslyn - triedto surrender to the Cylon's, and they responded by using more nukes than they had already. We're not talking a Braves v. Texas Rangers thing here or even a Russians v. U.S.A. We're talking about totemic opposition.

How do you think this will be resolved, aside from the destruction of one side or the other? Or will it simply go on forever and ever and ever?
Ideally it will be resolved with the humans and the cylons finding a way to peacefully coexist. We've already seen the cylon philosophy mutate a great deal, repeatedly. There's no reason to believe that they'll never change.

Genocide is underrated tactically and stratigically and over condemned morally and ethically.
LOL, well, clearly we come from very different philosophies, as I can't imagine a more incorrect statement. :)
 

Fast Learner said:
But see, that's exactly the problem Aesthetic Monk was bringing up (or at least I am): I thought it wasn't much of a moral quandary either, but because it was utterly and without question wrong to commit genocide. And so, with such strongly-held and differing opinions, it potentially becomes interesting.

Ah, see, I read it differently. If I got it wrong, I apologize AS!

The problem with this episode is that it is a black and white issue, when I think that the purpose was probably to present a shade of gray. It's not like other issues they've presented, where there's middle ground. Here, because of the situation they've created, either you are for the use of the biological weapon or against, there isn't a middle moral ground that they force you to look at. That's the problem with this episode. Without that, basically, we're either morally for it or morally against it, and that's really it. Honestly, there's not that much more to discuss about it other than to state what side we're on.
 

Aesthetic Monk said:
Well, I think this is the last time I'll stop by a BSG thread here. Obviously, this wasn't and isn't everyone's opinion, but still. Seems like RDM's failure as a dramatist here was to assume that viewers would have a reflexive revulsion at the thought of genocide.

Actually, EN World is one of the most reasonable places to discuss BSG on the net. Signal to noise is extremely high here.

The fundamental problem with the genocide as a moral wrong argument for me is:

1 - The Cylons have actively taken steps to annihilate the human race in a premeditated, deliberate, unprovoked, sustained and concerted effort over the course of years at genocide. From 12 billion humans down to 42,000. The Cylons are 99.996% of the way to their goal and they are not letting up.

This is not the time to measure ones blows. Nor is the reasoning here in the least motivated by some analogy to the Reich. This is not a hate- filled final solution scenario carried out on innocents.

There are no Cylon innocents. Not a single one of them.

2 - You ascribe to the Cylons a status as a "race" that I would not willingly grant them so lightly. They are machines. Created, not born. That cannot even procreate on their own.

Mr. Smith voice on: "We have a name for an organism on this planet that cannot procreate on its own. It is called a virus."

Call it wrong, call it evil..call it whatever you want. I call it necessary for the survival of the species. Against this, no argument or resort to ethics is of much consequence. Given the prisoners dilemma the RTF finds itself in, "us or them?" It's them. Every. Single. Time.

The above points re: "they played the genocide card first" and "lack of racial status" are just icing on a well baked and presented cake.

I'm a liberal and I don't believe in capital punishment. (Edit - not an invitaiton to discuss further). Point is, I am not presenting some twitchy right-wing reaction here. I have a deep and abiding serenity concerning the correctness of using the virus as a weapon in this instance.

I am genuinely suprised people are having difficulty with it at all.
 
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Steel_Wind said:
There are no Cylon innocents. Not a single one of them.

2 - You ascribe to the Cylons a status as a "race" that I would not willingly grant them so lightly. They are machines. Created, not born. That cannot even procreate on their own.

Actually, I'd say those two points are where the decision of whether you are for or against it are.

The innocence of the Cylons is debatable, especially since there are 5 models we know NOTHING about. For all we know, they are, in fact, innocent.

And as for calling something a race or not...well, again, there is obviously a line somewhere. Cylons are created, yes, but they seem to procreate, even if its not in the same form as humans. Hell, they survived for 50 years without any humans, so they seem to have the process of living down just fine.

And that's the thing, they are ALIVE. We know that. They go to great lengths to BE alive and to prove it. Maybe its not in the same sense as for humans, but why should it be? Is all life exactly the same?

The other thing that I see as a big thing against genocide is roughly along the same lines as what Helo said. The Cylons are bad, yes. But is turnabout really fair play? Does one species really have any right at all to destroy another? The Cylons thought so, obviously, and Roslin does, too...but does this make the humans as bad as the Cylons? THAT, I think, is the question being posed in this episodes.

Are we really that different?
 

Steel_Wind said:
There are no Cylon innocents. Not a single one of them.

It's a little difficult to be absolutely sure about that. And for some people, whether there are any innocents among them or not doesn't matter.

2 - You ascribe to the Cylons a status as a "race" that I would not willingly grant them so lightly. They are machines. Created, not born. That cannot even procreate on their own.

Again, this is a matter of definition. For some people, the fact that they are sentient beings is much more important than whether they can procreate on their own or not.

Call it wrong, call it evil..call it whatever you want. I call it necessary for the survival of the species. Against this, no argument or resort to ethics is of much consequence.

For you. That doesn't mean that everyone else would put the survival of the species ahead of issues of ethics or other concerns.

Given the prisoners dilemma the RTF finds itself in, "us or them?" It's them. Every. Single. Time.

Again, for you. Not necessarily for everyone. Not even if you use words singly and use a period after each :D

The above points re: "they played the genocide card first" and "lack of racial status" are just icing on a well baked and presented cake.

I'm a liberal and I don't believe in capital punishment. (Edit - not an invitaiton to discuss further). Point is, I am not presenting some twitchy right-wing reaction here. I have a deep and abiding serenity concerning the correctness of using the virus as a weapon in this instance.

I am genuinely suprised people are having difficulty with it at all.

I'm completely unsurprised that people are having difficulty with either position. Is it really that difficult to fathom that some people have different (maybe even diametrically opposed) perspectives to you?
 

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
The innocence of the Cylons is debatable, especially since there are 5 models we know NOTHING about. For all we know, they are, in fact, innocent.

The Cylons are quite aware of what they are doing, as evidenced by their decision to (temporarily) stop. So I don't see how you can suppose they might be innocent.

Although ... suppose they are so intellectually advanced that humans cannot understand them. If a human destroys an ant hill, or obliterates a disease, is it genocide? Perhaps to the Cylons the humans are ants ...

And as for calling something a race or not...well, again, there is obviously a line somewhere. Cylons are created, yes, but they seem to procreate, even if its not in the same form as humans. Hell, they survived for 50 years without any humans, so they seem to have the process of living down just fine.

And that's the thing, they are ALIVE. We know that. They go to great lengths to BE alive and to prove it. Maybe its not in the same sense as for humans, but why should it be? Is all life exactly the same?

I think this is the essence of the debate that BSG proposes -- what is the equal of humankind? What deserves recognition as a people/species/sentient race? Can Cylons as mechanical creations, or the descendents of mechanical creations, be the equal of humanity. Humanity has destroyed entire species, both intentionally and unintentionally. Is this genocide? Certainly no one blinks an eye at the total and utter eradication of disease virii that represent a threat to humanity. How can this be right for a virus, yet wrong for Cylons?

The other thing that I see as a big thing against genocide is roughly along the same lines as what Helo said. The Cylons are bad, yes. But is turnabout really fair play? Does one species really have any right at all to destroy another? The Cylons thought so, obviously, and Roslin does, too...but does this make the humans as bad as the Cylons? THAT, I think, is the question being posed in this episodes.

Are we really that different?

Does it matter? Humanity becomes the Cylons, who are themselves trying to replace humanity?

BSG is pursued by an implacable foe, that has destroyed all but the remaining 40k of the human race (in theory). There is no evidence that the Cylons will stop short of utter annihilation of humanity. BSG can run, but it can't hide: if it finds Earth, then what? The Cylons destroy Earth. End of story -- the virus has been eliminated.

The key question in my mind to assessing the right of the situation is not whether genocide is right or wrong -- that's the secondary question -- but what ethical or moral model applies in this sort of "all or nothing" situation. What is moral? You can take the Heinleinian argument that what is moral is that which most contributes to the survival of the species -- in which case Cylon genocide is a moral imperative. (Now, admittedly, that's a Neo-fascist moralism taken from Starship Troopers, YMMV. But I think it's a worthy point to consider). Consider more traditional ethical models:

1. Kants Deontological model. What is the rule or obligation which applies? Does it prohibit the action? In this case, the human law against genocide would forbid the action ... but they can change the law.

2. Consequentialism. What will produce the greatest good? Tough to argue this one because it's easy to drift into model #3, and you can't predict the future. Perhaps from an objective standpoint a Cylon victory and elimination of the human race produces the greatest good -- Cylon genocide is therefore an ethically wrong choice. On the other hand, the Cylon genocidal tendencies can be seen as inherently evil, so stopping them by eliminating the Cylons produces the greatest good ... point to genocide.

3. Situational Ethics. There are no absolute values -- considering the situation, what is the motivation for the action, and is it good? This argues strongly in favor of genocide -- from the human point of view, guaranteeing the survival of the human race is the ultimate form of good.

4. Virtue Ethics (Plato/Aristotle) - what choice most reflects the decision of a person of great character? This clearly argues against the genocidal decision.

I'm of the mind that all ethical models are equally valid, at least as long as there isn't a "higher moral authority" waiting around the corner to enforce a particular ethical model -- and religious discussion aside, there doesn't appear to be one in the case of Cylons v. Humanity. Considering the four models above, I assess an equal case for and against, but would argue that the situational case for survival of the species takes precedence. The virtue moralist will have a tough time making his case when the Cylons nuke his escape capsule.

To reframe the argument -- the Cylons are an implacable foe that have human form. If they did not -- were they Fritz Leiber's Berserkers or the smallpox/AIDS/ebola virus, both equally capable of eliminating the entire human race -- would there be the same moral objection about eliminating them? In the BSG universe, I'd argue it's hard to be pro-smallpox vaccine and anti-Cylon genocide at the same time. Both represent a threat to the existence of humanity (and smallpox a lesser one, given that in can be prevented).
 
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The "eradicating a virus" analogies fail when the primary source of humanity's ego is applied to the argument, that sentience makes us special and more important than all other species. The Cylons are not a virus, not a bacteria, and as we have learned over two and a half seasons, not simple machine intelligences. They are sentient, and this makes them special, too.
 

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