Best Gestalt Combos?

[Rystil Arden]

What Jack Simth said + the following: Though the melee/caster class isn't going to be able to go melee while blasting, it does lend itself well to buff-n-kill'em gish (or divine or psionic gish) as well as dangerous ranged touch attack spell blaster (and really, those spells are already more likely to succeed than the ones with saves, particularly against gestalts. If the caster has full BAB, ranged touch attacks become even more of a sure thing).

Now, the whole action rule does assume that you have other characters in your group who can handle the other things you aren't doing. Clearly if you don't have anyone else in the party gestalted with a divine caster on either side, then tacking Favoured Soul onto your Sorcerer might seem like a better idea than if you do.

 

[Darklone]

Hyp: As mentioned, I see your reasoning...
And I do agree that the section about sneak attack and psionic sneak attack stacking does not refer to the Gestalt rules. Yet, I'd rather allow/rule these two to stack than Sudden Strike and sneak attack.

The full text:
Psionic Sneak Attack(Ex): While psionically focused, a lurk can strike a vital spot for extra damage if she attacks an opponent while he is unable to defend himself effectively. This is identical to the sneak attack ability of the rogue (PH 50), except the damage only aplies when the lurk maintains a psionic focus. Sneak attack damage and psionic sneak attack damage stack whenever both would apply to the same target.

 

[Nifft]

"passive" abilities are all great and all, but I do not see how a melee/spellcaster is more powerful than a arcane/divine spellcaster.

My basic point is: arcane and divine spells use the same resource ("actions"). You want to pair your spellcaster with something that boosts his bad save(s), gives him better skills, and allows him abilities that don't use actions. Rage is a free action; quickened divine power is a Swift action. One is free, the other prevents you from casting wraithstrike (or whatever). Evasion doesn't cost an action, and neither does Aura of Courage.

If you want to do melee via shapechange, won't you be doing it better with feats and full BAB?

In my games, skills come up even at high levels, and having Sense Motive or Bluff on your list could be a big help. "Passive" doesn't always mean melee.

Cheers, -- N

 

[RigaMortus2]

Spellcaster/melee usually has more HP, and probably a better reflex save,

Not with spells like Bear's End, False Life, Polymorph (into a creature with a higher Con). Spellcasters can buff up their HPs easily, a melee combatant can't.

the the Arcane Spellcaster/Divine Spellcaster. Moreover, the Spellcaster/melee usually has less MAD.

True, but the OP did not supply us with ability scores, so I am assuming they have the primary ability scores covered.

Take, for example, the Sorcerer/paladin. d10 HD, Charisma-spellcasting, Charisma to saves, Charisma-based healing.... and as he only gets one action/round anyway, he can zap, zap, zap.

Not that it wouldn't be a FUN character to play, I still see a Sorc/Cleric more powerful than your Sorc/Paladin. The Cleric part can heal a lot better than the Paladin one can. Even though the Paladin gets d10HPs, the Sorc/Cleric has several spells that can suppliment this. And he'll be hitting just as well (or better) via Polymorph or Shapechange (which the Sorc part of the Paladin can do as well).

Compare to the Cleric/Wizard. d8 HD, Int and Wis spellcasting, turning, a few bonus feats. Sure, he's got spells falling out the wazoo... but good luck getting them all off. Meanwhile, it lacks the passive defensive abilities that the Sorcerer/paladin is enjoying. No SR, no full BAB for those attack spells (until you get to the point where you can Quicken Divine Power), and so on.

I would probably use a Cleric/Sorc as the comparison, and use the Celerity and Arcane Fusion spells to get off 2 or more spells a round. So no problem w/ getting them all off. As I already noted, d8HPs are supplimented with False Life and improved Con via Polymorph (depending on which ruling of Poly you are using), not to mention Stoneskin. There is a Spell Immunity spell, and a Spell Resistance spell, so there is your SR right there. Full BAB is taken care of thanks to Divine Favor (Cleric spell) or Polymorph.

You might be assuming you do not have any time to prep your "buffs" ahead of time. I am assuming you do.

Take, as another example, the Druid/monk. Class features up the wazoo, all good saves, Wisdom-based spellcasting, Wisdom to AC, fast movement. Only two stats that are particularly needed; Wisdom and Con. Oh, and if the D/m decides to enter melee, lots and lots of options (monk abilities have no particular reason to go away in an alternate from, such as caused by Wildshaping).

Again, I am not disagreeing that the D/M is not a FUN class to play, nor that it doesn't have plenty of options available to it, just that "pound for pound" it isn't going to be as powerful as a properly built arcane/divine caster.

Compare to the Druid/Sorcerer. Lots of class features and a metric wazooload of spells.... but three stats to worry about (Wis, Cha, Con), lower speed, can't use armor (arcane spell failure, don't cha know), and so forth.

Since we weren't given ability scores to assign from the OP, I can only assume whatever gestalt combo you come up with, you'll have your primary stats covered. Lower Speed? The Sorc will have Fly, Dimension Door, Teleport and even Exp. Retreat available to them. How is their speed going to be lower (esp since they can teleport anywhere in an instant)? There are PrCs out there that reduce arcane spellfailure, as well as special armor material types that do as well (once that Druid's can even use). Use Poly or Alter Self to get that AC bonus you want (isn't a Trog like +6 or +8 nat armor). Also Stoneskin helps with damage as well, Energy Resistance for spells, etc. Tons of options via spells.

 

[RigaMortus2]

What Jack Simth said + the following: Though the melee/caster class isn't going to be able to go melee while blasting, it does lend itself well to buff-n-kill'em gish (or divine or psionic gish) as well as dangerous ranged touch attack spell blaster (and really, those spells are already more likely to succeed than the ones with saves, particularly against gestalts. If the caster has full BAB, ranged touch attacks become even more of a sure thing).

And why can't an arcane/divine spellcasters also "buff" up and then go into melee? Or attack from range via spells?

Now, the whole action rule does assume that you have other characters in your group who can handle the other things you aren't doing. Clearly if you don't have anyone else in the party gestalted with a divine caster on either side, then tacking Favoured Soul onto your Sorcerer might seem like a better idea than if you do.

In a party context, this is true.

 

[RigaMortus2]

My basic point is: arcane and divine spells use the same resource ("actions"). You want to pair your spellcaster with something that boosts his bad save(s), gives him better skills, and allows him abilities that don't use actions. Rage is a free action; quickened divine power is a Swift action. One is free, the other prevents you from casting wraithstrike (or whatever). Evasion doesn't cost an action, and neither does Aura of Courage.

If you want to do melee via shapechange, won't you be doing it better with feats and full BAB?

In my games, skills come up even at high levels, and having Sense Motive or Bluff on your list could be a big help. "Passive" doesn't always mean melee.

Cheers, -- N

Extra actions can be gotten via Quicken Spell feat, Sudden Quicken Spell feat, Celerity line of spells, Arcane Fusion line of spells, Swift spells, Immediate spells, Polymorph into a Choker (I think that is the monster that gets an extra free Move action per round), and Timestop (to name a few). There is also Schism and Hustle if you go the Psion route.

So there are many ways to get around the "lack" of actions you get. It is quite easy to cast 2 or 3 spells per round (and there are slightly complex ways to cast more per round if you want to get into it, see Celerity and Arcane Fusion for one).

 

[Darklone]

Not that it wouldn't be a FUN character to play, I still see a Sorc/Cleric more powerful than your Sorc/Paladin. The Cleric part can heal a lot better than the Paladin one can. Even though the Paladin gets d10HPs, the Sorc/Cleric has several spells that can suppliment this. And he'll be hitting just as well (or better) via Polymorph or Shapechange (which the Sorc part of the Paladin can do as well).

Right, the cleric would be better at casting spells... yet the main advantage of Pal/Sor: you need only CHA and your saves will rock. Good hitpoints, good saves, good spellcasting.

Turn undead can be used with Divine Feats.

Sor/Clr needs high CHA and WIS and still needs at least good CON.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Right, the cleric would be better at casting spells... yet the main advantage of Pal/Sor: you need only CHA and your saves will rock. Good hitpoints, good saves, good spellcasting.

Turn undead can be used with Divine Feats.

Sor/Clr needs high CHA and WIS and still needs at least good CON.

Aye, and the Pal/Sor is still mostly all there and still dangerous when the Greater Dispel bomb is dropped. The Clr/Sor who was approximating it with Divine Power much less so.

 

[Nifft]

Extra actions can be gotten via Quicken Spell feat, Sudden Quicken Spell feat, Celerity line of spells, Arcane Fusion line of spells, Swift spells, Immediate spells, Polymorph into a Choker (I think that is the monster that gets an extra free Move action per round), and Timestop (to name a few). There is also Schism and Hustle if you go the Psion route.

THOSE ARE ALMOST ALL THE SAME ACTION. You get one Swift (aka quickened) action, one Standard action, and you can't use your Move action to cast any spell I know. (C'mon, someone gimmie a move-action spell!)

Time stop isn't a reliable tactic until 17th level, and even then, the things you can do with it are limited. Schism is nice, and will actually net you a manifesting action (at -6 levels), but is obviously limited to Psions.

Hustle? What use would that be? It costs you your Swift action (which you could have used to cast a useful spell) and gives you an extra Move action (which is useless for a caster).

Polymorph doesn't grant you any (Su) abilities. Look at the spell closely, especially after the errata.

You can't use two Quickened, Swift or Immediate actions in the same round.

So there are many ways to get around the "lack" of actions you get. It is quite easy to cast 2 or 3 spells per round (and there are slightly complex ways to cast more per round if you want to get into it, see Celerity and Arcane Fusion for one).

It's easy to cast 2 spells per round. Telepaths and other Psions who blow three feats can do 3 every round, but at a very high power point cost.

Two meaningful actions per round is the limit I'm talking about. (Move isn't nearly as meaningful for a Wizard or Sorcerer. There aren't many "full round action" spells, just standard and 1 round.)

Pick a secondary class that doesn't require that same resource.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

Polymorph doesn't grant you any (Su) abilities. Look at the spell closely, especially after the errata.

Shapechange does, and Quickness (Su) grants an extra standard action, which is useful for a caster.

-Hyp.