D&D 5E Best Non-GWM, Non-SS, Non-PM, Non-CE Damagers

[clearstream]

You got hex for one of the six combats and, therefore, for 4 rounds of combat.

That's incorrect, Hex runs an hour. Nothing prevents there being more than one combat an hour. Or are we suddenly interested in applicability?

After racial and one ASI, hits AC 17 on 9 or better. Precision on 1-3 can go at least 4 combats before resting (forsaking 1.5 damage a round).

 

[clearstream]

Why would one assume 100% applicapability. I think you like to make numbers appear bigger than they should be.

Because the other builds make equally ludicrous assumptions, principally. The whole point of the build is to make people notice that Sentinel isn't really going to trigger 100% of the time. GFB isn't really going to bounce 100% of the time. Sneak Attack conditions aren't really going to be met 100% of the time.

The estimates of anyone who is using a construct that fails to incorporate applicability, are nonsense.

Green-flame Blade looks OP on paper, until you play a bit and notice that it doesn't bounce that often, and you don't always get your Sneak Attack, and half the time your foe is attacking you, and occasionally you're not standing next to an ally.

 

[clearstream]

Aarakocra Fey warlock 7/ rogue 2. With booming blade, greater invisibility, stealth expertise, and warcaster.

Turn 1: Turn invisible, hide as a bonus action, and move next to an enemy, possibly straight above them.
Reaction: There's a good chance they will move. Hit them with booming blade.
Turn 2+: Boomblade, hide as a bonus action, and move next to an enemy, possibly a different one.
Reaction: There's a good chance they will move. Hit them with booming blade.

Assuming they move = 2d8+3 + 2d6 intitial attack + 2d8 secondary. * 2 attacks per round (except the first turn).
= 56 * 75% chance to hit (advantage) = 42 DPR

With 2 more levels of rogue and 1 more of warlock for 20 dex. (12 total).

(3d8+5+3d6+3d8) * 2
= 85 * .84 chance to hit = 71.4 DPR.


You lose a few attacks for casting greater invisibility. But you'll probably also get some surprise rounds being invsibilie and sneaky. As well as some crits.

Let's say instead that after the first, they know not to move. What then?

 

[clearstream]

GFB does split your damage. It's why I explicitly separated it out.

I had earlier in the day looked at doing this build and already had possessing Gauntlets of Ogre Power in mind when doing the math. I blanked that you have to use Strength with Reckless attack and not Dexterity.

Be that as it may, if you remove Elven Accuracy from the equation and play basically anything that can get you a 20 STR with 2 ASIs. Your damage at level 12 is:
target 1: 34.6
target 2: 10.5
Sentinel: 25.8
Total: 71.0

It's not much lower and since your preferred level limit is 13 you can go Barb 2/Rogue 11 and get one more d6 of sneak attack for:

target 1: 38.0
target 2: 10.5
sentinel: 29.3
total: 77.8

This assumes a 14 intelligence so the target 2 damage is lower or higher depending on what your actual intelligence is. By level 17 when you get your next increase for GFB you are reaching close to 100 damage in total.

EDIT: To reply to your edit. One of the first things I thought of was taking Champion 3 for MOAR crit. But, surprisingly, you do less damage. I haven't tested it with Battlemaster 3. You can take Precision and use it the 1 or 2 times you'll be missing on your regular attack and you'll end up hitting about 99% of the time. This means, as you said, that you can Riposte to your heart's content. This probably makes up for losing some sneak attack dice. It's certainly more worthwhile if the enemy are likely to attack you and you can't hide behind allies. You'll hit so much you can use your action surge to run at the opponent. Move (30'), bonus action dash (30'), action surge dash (30'). The mobility certainly means more up time.

What happens when your foes after the first bounce each combat, spread out? How much up time are you assuming on Sentinel? What happens whey an ally isn't nearby? What happens when the damage you're taking back kills you by the third combat?

 

[clearstream]

How are you getting the same hex in all combats if (I assume) you get it from magic initiate so are only good for 1 hour (maybe 2 combats).

Scenario doesn't require that character uses all rests, right?

 

[thethain]

Scenario doesn't require that character uses all rests, right?

If you are intending to action surge twice, you damn sure better use at least one rest. Or hit level I think 17? fighter. One rest will end hex.

Also I assume since the description is "Adventuring day" that it is a list of encounters that occur throughout the day. And that the likelihood of forcing all the fights to happen in an hour is low. AND that the character will be a member of an adventuring party, which will likely want to rest at some point.

 

[clearstream]

If you are intending to action surge twice, you damn sure better use at least one rest. Or hit level I think 17? fighter. One rest will end hex.

One rest, after 5 combats, allowing fighter to dump full superiority dice on the last combat. It's orthogonal to my goals to work out the optimum.

Also I assume since the description is "Adventuring day" that it is a list of encounters that occur throughout the day. And that the likelihood of forcing all the fights to happen in an hour is low. AND that the character will be a member of an adventuring party, which will likely want to rest at some point.

Exactly. Our wonderful numbers on paper fail the rule that For damage to be effective, it must be applied. (Consider the contrary, for damage to be effective, it must not be applied!?) As you point out, GFB and Sentinel require a party, and require foes to be arranged in just the right way. [MENTION=6785802]guachi[/MENTION]'s GFB builds has the same problem. My belief is that all our estimation is empty until we come up with a construct that factors in applicability.

accuracy = lesser of 0.95 and (20−(AC−attack))*0.05
average = ((dice minimum)+(dice maximum)/2)+(flat modifiers)
damage = average*accuracy
cleave = 1−((1−(damage/HP))^(number of attacks))
critical = 1−((1−critical chance)^(number of attacks))
depletion = expenditure/turn*5
short resource fraction = charges/2
long resource fraction = charges/6

We're familiar with most of those and apply them with varying consistency, but what about

space = distance−range ?
lag = space/speed ?
awareness = binary assumption? ratio?

Without those, along with foe count and positioning assumptions, and ally count and positioning assumptions, our estimates frequently yield intuitions that play proves false.

 

[FrogReaver]

One rest, after 5 combats, allowing fighter to dump full superiority dice on the last combat. It's orthogonal to my goals to work out the optimum.


Exactly. Our wonderful numbers on paper fail the rule that For damage to be effective, it must be applied. (Consider the contrary, for damage to be effective, it must not be applied!?) As you point out, GFB and Sentinel require a party, and require foes to be arranged in just the right way. [MENTION=6785802]guachi[/MENTION]'s GFB builds has the same problem. My belief is that all our estimation is empty until we come up with a construct that factors in applicability.

accuracy = lesser of 0.95 and (20−(AC−attack))*0.05
average = ((dice minimum)+(dice maximum)/2)+(flat modifiers)
damage = average*accuracy
cleave = 1−((1−(damage/HP))^(number of attacks))
critical = 1−((1−critical chance)^(number of attacks))
depletion = expenditure/turn*5
short resource fraction = charges/2
long resource fraction = charges/6

We're familiar with most of those and apply them with varying consistency, but what about

space = distance−range ?
lag = space/speed ?
awareness = binary assumption? ratio?

Without those, along with foe count and positioning assumptions, and ally count and positioning assumptions, our estimates frequently yield intuitions that play proves false.

Wouldn't it be better to go back to your thread if you want to continue on your soap box about all this? Why insist it become a part of my thread when you have your own already created for it.

 

[mellored]

Let's say instead that after the first, they know not to move. What then?

Then have your allies pop out of a corner, throw stuff at them, and move back into safety. You just got a full free round of damage.

Their better off moving towards your allies then standing around waiting to be killed.

3 things that can screw it up.
A lucky enemy that guesses your location, hits with disadvantage, and disrupts your concentration that you have advantage on. A bit easier with a fireball.
Allies who rush in and stands toe to toe with the enemy. (Though rushing ranged enemies works fine).
True vision (flying avoids tremmorsense).

At which point, you switch to hit-and-run. Doing 2d8+3+2d6(+2d8 if they move). Which as about as much a regular rogue.

You can also fly 100' with a 120' range attack (though with only 14 Cha, eldrich blast is a bit weak, even with advantage ). So it may take a while, but you can kill any ground melee troops without them being able to attack back.

Or just fly 150' per round, and come back after a short rest.

 

[mellored]

I like the concept. I hate it taking level 9 to even get started with it. Having a friend wizard take greater invisibility and doing the same thing with a straight up rogue swashbuckler could be interesting. At level 7 that may be the scariest buff strategy I've seen.

A warlock 1/rogue 2 can do decently.

Hit with booming blade and disengage.
2d8+2d6+3 = 19 *0.5 = 9.5 DPR. (move)
1d8+2d6+3 = 14.5 *0.5 = 7.25 (don't move)

In fact, it's probably the highest damage possible at level 3.

It increases at level 5 to
4d8+2d6+3 = 28 * 0.5 = 14 (moves)
2d8+2d6+3 = 19 * 0.5 = 9.5 (don't move)

Which isn't too much behind a 2-handed fighter. (at 6, with 20 Str).
4d6+8 = 22 * .6 = 13.2 (+ action surge, precision strike).

Then it really takes off at level 9.
It also comes with the other walock goodies. Including 5 invocations (at-will disguise self). Though I'm really torn between chain (invisible familiar fits so well with invisible master) and tome...