BoED -- Vow of Poverty

[Zimri]

Lord Pendragon over the course of two pages you have failed to sway my thinking. I still believe that a VoP can ride another characters donkey, horse, warhorse, in the wagon, have a spot in the tent etcetera. I also still believe he or she can perform on the stage in a bar, or as a waitress/waiter/bouncer/security in said inn, in exchange for room and board. Also if the campaign and players are "mature" enough I wouldn't put it past a VoP to exchange other favours for other gifts of luxury (the best suite in the hotel, gowns to wear to a ball/social function etcetera, provided of course that they don't "use" that wealth for things other than it's intent. Ghandi slept in luxurious suites when he traveled abroad, owned expensive glasses, had an entourage, darn well didn't walk to america, and you won't find a more ascetic RL person than him.

Don't feel badly though Darrin Drader has also failed to convince me that my monks fists are a magical posession.

 

[Pax]

I agree. You know something's wrong when there is a two-page discussion on whether or not a character could still have a mule. Please. If this took up this much time in my game, it would be dropped in a second. VoP is lame.

Theproblem there is, there's no rules-mechanic incentive to be ascetic, without the Vow of Poverty in some form or other. In fact, without the benefits of the Vow ... you'd be rather stupid to forswear all that wealth.

As you rise in level, after all, more andmoreof your relative "power" comes from the magic items you own and use.

The Vow represents a way to reap some game-mechanic benefit for your decision to play a voluntarily destitute beggar.

Ghandi slept in luxurious suites when he traveled abroad, owned expensive glasses, had an entourage, darn well didn't walk to america, and you won't find a more ascetic RL person than him.

An excellent point.

Don't feel badly though Darrin Drader has also failed to convince me that my monks fists are a magical posession.

Ah, you're referring to the wholeMonk/Kensai thing? Where a Monk/Kensai who imbues his fists voids their Vow of Poverty, but a Fighter/Kensai who does the same, does not ... ?

Yeah, I agree, that's about on the same level of silly-over-restrictive-nonsense as the "accept the offer of a ride, void your vow" stuff here. '

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Lord Pendragon over the course of two pages you have failed to sway my thinking. I still believe that a VoP can ride another characters donkey, horse, warhorse, in the wagon, have a spot in the tent etcetera.

No worries, I'm not trying to sway people to my way of thinking. I'm just presenting another DM's viewpoint on the issue. For me, the idea of a VoP character that can live in the lap of luxury by having his friends pay for all his luxuries, yet still remain technically true to his vow, is untenable. But as this thread has shown, there are many different rulings on the issue.

 

[Zimri]

No worries, I'm not trying to sway people to my way of thinking. I'm just presenting another DM's viewpoint on the issue. For me, the idea of a VoP character that can live in the lap of luxury by having his friends pay for all his luxuries, yet still remain technically true to his vow, is untenable. But as this thread has shown, there are many different rulings on the issue.

Please then explain the two best RL examples which exist of a vow of poverty Mother Theresa, and Ghandi. Both of these lived mostly meager existance but on occassion they were offered and accepted lavish extravagances (Hotel suites, plane tickets, lavish meals). They did not ask for these things, but they did not refuse the gifts that were offered. Most of these were perishable and could not be passed on to another person by them afterwards, so they didn't gain any "material wealth".

That I believe is where the line should be drawn "can not amass material wealth except that you be on your way to donate it to a charity and then you may not avail yourself of it's use."

 

[Pax]

For me, the idea of a VoP character that can live in the lap of luxury

I hardly think having an animal to ride, instead of walking, is "living in thelap of luxury". Ditto for having a friend buy your passage ont eh ship the whole party is travellignin ... being bought meals and a space int eh comon room at each inn the party stops at ... and so on.

Having a private residence of especial grandeur and size, wearing silks and jewels every day, and having a cadre of servants at your beckand call - sure, tat's "living in thelap of luxury".

But riding a mule or horse when you travel, and being able to sleep under a roof at night (in the dead of winter, noless), is hardly luxury.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Please then explain the two best RL examples which exist of a vow of poverty Mother Theresa, and Ghandi.

If either Mother Theresa or Ghandi was packing a +5 Natural Armor bonus and all the other bennies that go along with a D&D Vow of Poverty, then I might feel that this comparison is appropriate. As it is, the D&D Vow of Poverty and any actual vows of poverty in the real world are apples and oranges. Mother Theresa and Ghandi took vows of poverty and gained nothing from those vows (at least physically. The spiritual gains are another matter.) The D&D vow is not the same beast.

If I may ask a question myself: how do you feel, in D&D, about a VoP character who lives in the lap of luxury? Perhaps the character is the good friend of a king or baron, and that friend lavishes him with expensive gifts, always pays for him to eat the best food and live under the most opulent conditions.

Would you still consider such a character to be faithfully adhering to his Vow of Poverty? Personally, I would not. He's living a wealthy life, even if he doesn't own any of the wealth he's taking advantage of, and that's not enough for a god to grant you a boatload of special powers. A Vow of Poverty is about living humbly, not about making sure you don't own any of the luxuries you enjoy.

Or so I rule it in my game.

 

[Pax]

If either Mother Theresa or Ghandi was packing a +5 Natural Armor bonus and all the other bennies that go along with a D&D Vow of Poverty, then I might feel that this comparison is appropriate.

If anyof their equally-experienced/trained/whatevr non-ascetic contemporaries were packing a +5 vorpal sword "and all the other bennies that co along with a D&D [high level character]", that prerequisite would make some level of sense.

As it is, the D&D Vow of Poverty and any actual vows of poverty in the real world are apples and oranges. Mother Theresa and Ghandi took vows of poverty and gained nothing from those vows (at least physically. The spiritual gains are another matter.) The D&D vow is not the same beast.

Probably because D&D is only a game, and most players don't care all that much to RP out an eternity of hard-earned rewards after the character dies.

Usually, if their character dies, and isn't expected to make a recovery ... they make a new character.

 

[hoyerhan]

I feel that this discussion is stuck in a 'own' vs 'use another persons property' way of thinking, and that the real intention of the VoP is forgotten.

The VoP, IMO, means that the character should live like the poor. A poor person doesn't get to borrow his friend's horse, because his poor friend doesn't have a horse. A poor man doesn't get to live in a fancy inn that a friend pays for him, because his friend doesn't have the money. A poor guy doesn't get to 'carry' his friend's magical sword, because poor people doesn't own magical swords. etc etc...

All my opinions, of course.

 

[Pax]

Hoywerhan, you assume - quite incorrectly, mind - that poor people only have poor friends.

I myself, IRL, am (relative to the standard oflivingin the USA) quite solidly poor - and I've been even worse off in thepast, mind - yet I still have friends and gaming acquaintances who're quite well-off.

I couldn't afford a car if my life depended on it, between fuel, repair/maintenance, and insurance. Yet, I know folks who own multiple cars/trucks.

 

[hoyerhan]

Hoywerhan, you assume - quite incorrectly, mind - that poor people only have poor friends.

I myself, IRL, am (relative to the standard oflivingin the USA) quite solidly poor - and I've been even worse off in thepast, mind - yet I still have friends and gaming acquaintances who're quite well-off.

I couldn't afford a car if my life depended on it, between fuel, repair/maintenance, and insurance. Yet, I know folks who own multiple cars/trucks.

Well, it seems I didn't express myself very clear.

I just feel that, if you could borrow your friends car all the time, get to eat and live by their house, you aren't really that poor. Even if you personally don't own a nickle. Not poor enough to qualify for the VoP anyway