BoED -- Vow of Poverty

[Lord Pendragon]

Just because the king offers you a room, offers you his finest food and drink, and offers you his fastest horse in exchange for your good services, does not mean you have to accept it. But most importantly, it means that you SHOULD'T accept it. That's the whole point of Vow of Poverty. To live a life of poverty.

Thank you.

 

[Zimri]

Yup gonna walk from one end of the spine of the world all the way to the other end so that I can rescue the kings teenage daughter. Have to walk her back too since I couldn't take a horse for her to ride on, or climbing gear. I might have her back in a year or three mostly unscathed.

 

[hong]

Yup gonna walk from one end of the spine of the world all the way to the other end so that I can rescue the kings teenage daughter. Have to walk her back too since I couldn't take a horse for her to ride on, or climbing gear. I might have her back in a year or three mostly unscathed.

Emphasis on "mostly", IYKWIMAITYD.

 

[Thanee]

Yup gonna walk from one end of the spine of the world all the way to the other end so that I can rescue the kings teenage daughter. Have to walk her back too since I couldn't take a horse for her to ride on, or climbing gear. I might have her back in a year or three mostly unscathed.

You just have to know your priorities.

VoP isn't a "restriction" it is a way of living you freely choose yourself to follow.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Coredump]

I have been following this thread since my last post.

I think there is a breakdown between 'occasional' and 'consistent'.

Yes, Ghandi accepted staying in a nice room when visiting heads of state, and probably ate pretty well too.

But what if that rich guy said, "Hey, I will build a big house in India, and you can live there for as long as you want, rent free."
Not the same.

Sure, King says "rescue my daughter please, I will send you on my ship" No problem. King says "hey, take my ship and use it as you please, for as long as you like, because you are neat." Nope.

I see no problem with someone letting the VoP character ride a horse for a bit. But the original problem that started this was an indefinite use of that animal, and that seems to break the spirit of the Vow. Again, I really have no problem with the character actually owning a mule in certain situations. For a traveling character, it is almost as much a necessity as shoes. But I very much disagree that if you can't own it, then it is okay to 'borrow' it 'forever'.

Try this one. If it is okay to let the character 'borrow' the mule. Then it should be okay to 'borrow' a warhorse indefinitely. Then it should be okay to 'borrow' Masterwork full plate, two Masterwork shortswords, a telescope, and even a full luxerious carraige. After all, you don't own them.

The point of the ascetic lifestyle is to LIVE THE ASCETIC LIFESTYLE. These people don't take a vow to not own anything, they take a vow to live in poverty. Ghandi could have been a multi-millionaire and still be living in poverty. You could have no assets, and no cash, and just be Bill Gates friend and live in a 'borrowed' mansion with two Bentleys and NOT be living a life of poverty.

Ghandi accepting a ride in Gate's Bentley, fine. Ghandi accepting an indefinite loan of one of the Bentleys, not fine.

.

 

[rushlight]

As Thanee said, it's a decision the PC makes for himself - not a restriction placed upon him. The reason the rules for ownership exist (IMHO) is to prevent the VoP PC from getting benefits that the Vow replaces - and to provide guidelines for preventing abuse of the Vow.

That said, it's the in DM's perview to decide what constitutes "abuse". It really depends on why the PC desires to keep the mule (or whatever) to decide if the player is trying to circumvent the spirit of the rule. (Clearly, allowing someone to own the item and let you use it is within the letter of the rule, as has been demonstrated previously.)

In this DMs opinion, I'd allow the mule to do what it wants. If the PC cares for it then it will usually stay (unless it gets scared - which it does easily). Honestly. It's a mule.

 

[apsuman]

back to the whole mule question which started this thread.

If your character is a sorcerer have them learn and cast Mount. Simply summon your mule. It lasts 2 hours per level, extended to a second level slot and it would last for four hours per level. Correct me if I am wrong here but it prevents you from having to feed and water the mule as well.

Even if you could get around the "owning the mule" problem you still have to own/buy feed for it.

There problem solved.

 

[Zimri]

I have been following this thread since my last post.

But what if that rich guy said, "Hey, I will build a big house in India, and you can live there for as long as you want, rent free."
Not the same.

Sure, King says "rescue my daughter please, I will send you on my ship" No problem. King says "hey, take my ship and use it as you please, for as long as you like, because you are neat." Nope.

I see no problem with someone letting the VoP character ride a horse for a bit. But the original problem that started this was an indefinite use of that animal, and that seems to break the spirit of the Vow. Again, I really have no problem with the character actually owning a mule in certain situations. For a traveling character, it is almost as much a necessity as shoes. But I very much disagree that if you can't own it, then it is okay to 'borrow' it 'forever'.

Try this one. If it is okay to let the character 'borrow' the mule. Then it should be okay to 'borrow' a warhorse indefinitely. Then it should be okay to 'borrow' Masterwork full plate, two Masterwork shortswords, a telescope, and even a full luxerious carraige. After all, you don't own them.

Ghandi accepting a ride in Gate's Bentley, fine. Ghandi accepting an indefinite loan of one of the Bentleys, not fine.

.

Ghandi would not (in my opinion) accepted the house being built for him. If the rich guy went ahead anyway Ghandi likely would have refused acceptance of the dead. If that were somehow forced on him he would have used it for charitable purposes like a temple, orphanage or school. If some rich guy made the same offer to my ascetic monk she would likely turn it into an orphanage, school, or temple to pistis. Just as she is planning on doing with part of the mine/mountain base the party owns. Children of the miners and tradefolk that work for us (or the miners/tradefolk themselves) can avail themselves of an education paid for by "The Dragon's Eye Consortium" out of my share of the mining /adventuring profits.

If I can not ride on a horse when a party member has 2 extra unburdened horses and has offered to allow me to use one (though I could say yes to his ebony fly *see the text in BOED*) I certainly can not set foot on a ship that costs thousands of dollars more.

I agree if you can borrow a donkey that was going unused you can borrow a warhorse that was going unused (and/or ride on the back of it). Although just now the word "borrow" in this instance seems wrong. The owner, you, and the horse are all travelling in the same direction , down the same road, and not leaving the general vicinity of each other. IN RL do I borrow the glass I am drinking from at my friends house from my friend for the duration I am using it ? that seems odd I think we need a different word. Same with the carriage if someone is sending you to do something that requires you to show up in a carriage (or he is silly/generous enough to loan the party the carriage for travel to something he wants them to do) you should be allowed to ride inside of it. not be dragged behind it.

The loans I speak of are not indefinite, there are some very real if not very quantifiable limits to them. Until I die, until you fall out of my favour, until I need/want the favour to end, until the end of the ball, until your service to me ends. I see no incongruity with Ghandi say accepting the use of a car, driver, and accomodations from the indian embassy or state department in whatever country he is visiting for the duration of his visit. If he were to take up residence in said country I would suspect he then would lose the privelleges of a "travelling dignitary"

 

[RigaMortus]

Yup gonna walk from one end of the spine of the world all the way to the other end so that I can rescue the kings teenage daughter. Have to walk her back too since I couldn't take a horse for her to ride on, or climbing gear. I might have her back in a year or three mostly unscathed.

My question would be this... Why would such a character ACCEPT such a quest? If the ascetic character knows his limitations, why would he accept a quest that he know's he will either fail or have to break his Vow to fulfill?

This is the same scenario one would use to screw over that Lawful Good Paladin. The Paladin's commander orders him to slaughter orc babies. Does the Paladin disobey the commander, thus breaking his Lawfulness? Or does the Paladin kill the innocent orc babies, this breaking his Goodness?

The situation you pose above is the same thing when presented to an ascetic character.

 

[hong]

My question would be this... Why would such a character ACCEPT such a quest? If the ascetic character knows his limitations, why would he accept a quest that he know's he will either fail or have to break his Vow to fulfill?

This is the same scenario one would use to screw over that Lawful Good Paladin. The Paladin's commander orders him to slaughter orc babies. Does the Paladin disobey the commander, thus breaking his Lawfulness? Or does the Paladin kill the innocent orc babies, this breaking his Goodness?

The situation you pose above is the same thing when presented to an ascetic character.

Come on! Wouldn't YOU jump at the chance to have a hot teenaged chick all to yourself for a year, maybe more?