D&D 5E Booming Blade seems a bit powerful

[Arial Black]

Let me try this a second way. The rules say a thing works unless there's an exception. So, going into combining the same spell, we first must assume that both spells work as written, and then look for any exceptions. There is an exception in this case, and that is for two spells working on the same target, only the most potent effect is applied to the target. That's the exception, nothing else changes. So, when I review the spell effect, all of those things continue to work as written on the target with the only exception that the only effect applied is the most potent.

Yep, we agree on all this.

Nothing there states that you pause the effect of a spell and only continue counting it's duration while a second spell of the same name is in effect. That exception is very different from only applying the most potent effect.

I'm not saying that the second spell is 'paused' (in the sense that the 'clock' of its duration temporarily halts). The duration of each spell continues to tick as normal, even if it is not having an effect.

So, for booming blade (or any spell), both castings are checking the same triggers and resolving and ending as per their effects, but the target only ever has the most potent effect from both applied to them.

No, because the triggers themselves are part of the 'spell effect'.

Just like multiple castings of bless only permit one bonus d4, multiple trigger-type spells only allow one trigger. The trigger for the second spell can no more apply than its damage.

Here's a sequence of events:-

* On initiative 15, the BBEG is hit by booming blade from a 1st level PC. The duration of the spell starts to tick down (1 round) and the duration will end on initiative 15 of the next round, if it hasn't ended early. The 'spell effect' happens. The 'spell effect' is that the BBEG is sheathed in a sonic bubble. The sonic bubble has various properties: 1.) if the BBEG voluntarily moves out of it, it triggers; 2.) if it triggers, it does damage; 3.) if it triggers, the 'spell effect' (the sonic sheath) ends

* On initiative 10, the BBEG is hit by another booming blade from a different 1st level PC. The duration of the spell starts to tick down (1 round) and the duration will end on initiative 10 of the next round, if it hasn't ended early. However, the 'spell effect' cannot combine, by RAW, with the already in-place 'spell effect'. Since that 'spell effect' is the sonic sheath with various properties (including the trigger), then the second sonic sheath cannot exist, because if it did it would do exactly the same as the first and we know they cannot combine. We also know that there cannot be two sonic sheaths in the same way that there cannot be two bonus d4s from two bless spells. Since the trigger is a property of the sonic sheath, and since there is no second sheath, then there is no second trigger!

* On initiative 5, the BBEG (foolishly?) moves out of its square triggering the damage from the only sheath that surrounds it! This also ends that spell effect early. At that point, there are no longer two overlapping spells, and so the second spell does what it says it does and surrounds the BBEG with a sonic sheath with the trigger/damage/ends early properties. If the BBEG doesn't move out of that second square then he is safe, and the spell duration will end on initiative 10 in the next round. If he moves out of that second square then it triggers, damages, and ends early.

 

[jaelis]

I think the key here is the line "If the target willingly moves before then, it immediately takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends."

I would read that as saying the spell ends if the target moves, regardless of whether it takes damage or whether there is actually a sheath on it or not.

If the target has been affected twice, then only the most potent effect applies, not both. But that doesn't mean the second spell isn't there; whether you think the target is surrounded by two sonic sheathes or one, it is the subject of two spells.* And when the target moves, both spells end, because that is the ending condition of the spell.

Personally, I would play it that when the target moves, you roll damage twice and the larger value is used.

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*I guess you could argue about that, but if you think the second spell is negated from the start, then certainly you wouldn't later take damage from it.

 

[Arial Black]

I think the key here is the line "If the target willingly moves before then, it immediately takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends."

I would read that as saying the spell ends if the target moves, regardless of whether it takes damage or whether there is actually a sheath on it or not.

If the target has been affected twice, then only the most potent effect applies, not both. But that doesn't mean the second spell isn't there; whether you think the target is surrounded by two sonic sheathes or one, it is the subject of two spells.* And when the target moves, both spells end, because that is the ending condition of the spell.

Personally, I would play it that when the target moves, you roll damage twice and the larger value is used.

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*I guess you could argue about that, but if you think the second spell is negated from the start, then certainly you wouldn't later take damage from it.

You cannot have two sonic sheaths, two triggers, two damage rolls OR two 'end early' conditions, any more than you can have two bonus d4s from bless.

Let's take the quote from the example given in the rule itself:-

"For example, if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spell’s benefit only once; he or she doesn’t get to roll two bonus dice".

Now we substitute the effect of booming blade for the effect of bless:-

"For example, if two warlocks cast booming blade on the same target, that character gains the spell’s benefit only once; he or she doesn’t get surrounded by two sonic sheaths".

To make it clear, "he doesn't have two triggers".

Also, "he doesn't roll two sets of damage".

Also, "he doesn't end two spells early".

 

[jaelis]

You cannot have two sonic sheaths, two triggers, two damage rolls OR two 'end early' conditions, any more than you can have two bonus d4s from bless.

Let's take the quote from the example given in the rule itself:-

"For example, if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spell’s benefit only once; he or she doesn’t get to roll two bonus dice".

Now we substitute the effect of booming blade for the effect of bless:-

"For example, if two warlocks cast booming blade on the same target, that character gains the spell’s benefit only once; he or she doesn’t get surrounded by two sonic sheaths".

To make it clear, "he doesn't have two triggers".

Also, "he doesn't roll two sets of damage".

I can agree with most of that. But yet he has two instances of booming blade acting upon him. Do you disagree?

If you agree, then each instance ends when it ends. If the character with two bless spells on him is targeted by dispel magic, then both spells would end. Do you disagree?

If you agree, then there is no question of triggers or damage. Both spells end because the target moves, since that is when the spell description says they end.

 

[Pathkeeper24601]

Yep, we agree on all this.



I'm not saying that the second spell is 'paused' (in the sense that the 'clock' of its duration temporarily halts). The duration of each spell continues to tick as normal, even if it is not having an effect.



No, because the triggers themselves are part of the 'spell effect'.

Just like multiple castings of bless only permit one bonus d4, multiple trigger-type spells only allow one trigger. The trigger for the second spell can no more apply than its damage.

Here's a sequence of events:-

* On initiative 15, the BBEG is hit by booming blade from a 1st level PC. The duration of the spell starts to tick down (1 round) and the duration will end on initiative 15 of the next round, if it hasn't ended early. The 'spell effect' happens. The 'spell effect' is that the BBEG is sheathed in a sonic bubble. The sonic bubble has various properties: 1.) if the BBEG voluntarily moves out of it, it triggers; 2.) if it triggers, it does damage; 3.) if it triggers, the 'spell effect' (the sonic sheath) ends

* On initiative 10, the BBEG is hit by another booming blade from a different 1st level PC. The duration of the spell starts to tick down (1 round) and the duration will end on initiative 10 of the next round, if it hasn't ended early. However, the 'spell effect' cannot combine, by RAW, with the already in-place 'spell effect'. Since that 'spell effect' is the sonic sheath with various properties (including the trigger), then the second sonic sheath cannot exist, because if it did it would do exactly the same as the first and we know they cannot combine. We also know that there cannot be two sonic sheaths in the same way that there cannot be two bonus d4s from two bless spells. Since the trigger is a property of the sonic sheath, and since there is no second sheath, then there is no second trigger!

* On initiative 5, the BBEG (foolishly?) moves out of its square triggering the damage from the only sheath that surrounds it! This also ends that spell effect early. At that point, there are no longer two overlapping spells, and so the second spell does what it says it does and surrounds the BBEG with a sonic sheath with the trigger/damage/ends early properties. If the BBEG doesn't move out of that second square then he is safe, and the spell duration will end on initiative 10 in the next round. If he moves out of that second square then it triggers, damages, and ends early.

Actually, this is RAI (Interpreted). RAW ceases to exist as soon as two people read the same rule and come to different conclusions. There can be now new RAW way of reading things, only a new way of interpreting what is written. Claims of "this is RAW" and "you can play that way" don't impress me much. This edition is much more about Interpretation and Rulings than RAW. Nothing myself or the other poster has written contradict what is in the PH, and I imagine more closely matches the Intention of the rule (far more important). I think you will have a very difficult time convincing any DM to follow along with your interpretation. Only the result of one Booming Blade is applied when it triggers.

 

[Arial Black]

I can agree with most of that. But yet he has two instances of booming blade acting upon him. Do you disagree?

He has two spells upon him, but (crucially) he does not have the two spells acting upon him. This is precisely what the Combining Magical Effects rule is all about.

If you agree, then each instance ends when it ends. If the character with two bless spells on him is targeted by dispel magic, then both spells would end. Do you disagree?

Each spell ends when it ends. Each spell has a duration, and those durations continue to expire at their normal rate regardless of the other spell and regardless of whether the spell is having an effect. Dispel magic would work normally. The 'stat block' part of each spell write-up is not subject to the Combining Magical Effects rule, because the 'stat block' part is not the 'spell effect'.

Each spell description in chapter 11 begins with a block of information, including the spell’s name, level, school of magic, casting time, range, components, and duration. The rest of a spell entry describes the spell’s effect.

Meanwhile, the 'ends early' part is part of the 'spell effect', and since only one 'spell effect' is actually having its effect then the 'ends early' part of the spell which is not having its effect is also not having its effect.

TL;DR: the 'spell duration' is not part of the 'spell effect', but the 'ends early' is part of the spell effect. If the 'spell effect' cannot affect the target because of the Combining Magical Effects rule then the duration carries on but the 'ends early' does not have an effect for the second spell while the durations overlap.

 

[Ovinomancer]

He has two spells upon him, but (crucially) he does not have the two spells acting upon him. This is precisely what the Combining Magical Effects rule is all about.



Each spell ends when it ends. Each spell has a duration, and those durations continue to expire at their normal rate regardless of the other spell and regardless of whether the spell is having an effect. Dispel magic would work normally. The 'stat block' part of each spell write-up is not subject to the Combining Magical Effects rule, because the 'stat block' part is not the 'spell effect'.



Meanwhile, the 'ends early' part is part of the 'spell effect', and since only one 'spell effect' is actually having its effect then the 'ends early' part of the spell which is not having its effect is also not having its effect.

TL;DR: the 'spell duration' is not part of the 'spell effect', but the 'ends early' is part of the spell effect. If the 'spell effect' cannot affect the target because of the Combining Magical Effects rule then the duration carries on but the 'ends early' does not have an effect for the second spell while the durations overlap.

I think you're taking the combining magical effects too far. It clearly does not say that the two spells do not act upon the target. In fact, it says the opposite in the first paragraph, when talking about two different spells, so we understand that a target with two spells will, in general, have both spells act upon it. Again, the general rule is that all spells cast on a target act upon the target normally. So, then the section talks about what happens if more than one of the same spell is cast on a target. Here it doesn't say anything about those spells not acting upon the target, it in fact only says that only the results of the most potent are applied to the target. Again, as per the general rule, both spells act upon on the target, but according to the specific rule, only the results of the most potent are applied. Nothing is said that modifies, in any way, any other functioning of the spell, so the general rules adhere. In the case of booming blade, all instances trigger, discharge, and end at the same time, but only one, the most potent, has it's effects applied to the target.

The only ruling available here is what potent means. DMs may differ, but if you follow the general<specific rule and look only at the specific change called out - only one effect applied - then this pretty quickly and efficiently solves itself. Now, if you want to work on how potent should be read, you'll have to excuse me I have a dental appointment I'd rather be at.

 

[Arial Black]

I think you're taking the combining magical effects too far. It clearly does not say that the two spells do not act upon the target. In fact, it says the opposite in the first paragraph, when talking about two different spells, so we understand that a target with two spells will, in general, have both spells act upon it. Again, the general rule is that all spells cast on a target act upon the target normally. So, then the section talks about what happens if more than one of the same spell is cast on a target. Here it doesn't say anything about those spells not acting upon the target, it in fact only says that only the results of the most potent are applied to the target. Again, as per the general rule, both spells act upon on the target, but according to the specific rule, only the results of the most potent are applied. Nothing is said that modifies, in any way, any other functioning of the spell, so the general rules adhere. In the case of booming blade, all instances trigger, discharge, and end at the same time, but only one, the most potent, has it's effects applied to the target.

You've changed what it says, and then use your changed definition to support your argument. Crucially, there is no 'result' that is a different thing than the 'effect'; that part is made up.

The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings APPLIES while their durations overlap.

The words it uses are 'effect' (of the spell, the 'spell effect') and 'applies' ("only the most potent 'effect' 'applies'").

Two different spells work normally. Two of the same spell do not.

Since we don't disagree on what 'potent' means, let's assume that both spells are equally potent. While both spells are 'on' the target, the durations of each continue to elapse normally. But the 'effects' of both spells do not 'apply'. Only the 'effects' of one of them actually 'applies'.

Since the 'effects' of only one spell 'apply', that includes everything that is part of the 'spell effect'. For booming blade, the 'trigger' (willingly moves), the damage (thunder), and the 'ends early' (when triggered) are ALL part of the spell's 'effect'. Since each spell has 'trigger/damage/ends' as their 'spell effect', only one 'trigger/damage/ends' "...applies while their durations overlap", as the rule itself states.

"Only one 'trigger/damage/ends' applies" also means that "only one 'trigger' applies".

The only ruling available here is what potent means. DMs may differ, but if you follow the general<specific rule and look only at the specific change called out - only one effect applied - then this pretty quickly and efficiently solves itself. Now, if you want to work on how potent should be read, you'll have to excuse me I have a dental appointment I'd rather be at.

I don't think anyone here is debating the 'potent' part.

 

[jaelis]

Meanwhile, the 'ends early' part is part of the 'spell effect', and since only one 'spell effect' is actually having its effect then the 'ends early' part of the spell which is not having its effect is also not having its effect.

TL;DR: the 'spell duration' is not part of the 'spell effect', but the 'ends early' is part of the spell effect. If the 'spell effect' cannot affect the target because of the Combining Magical Effects rule then the duration carries on but the 'ends early' does not have an effect for the second spell while the durations overlap.

I think I see where you are going with that, but if you argue the entire descriptive text is the effect, then does that mean, for instance, the caster doesn't even get to make the melee attack against a target with an active BB on him? Would the melee attack then occur after the first BB ends?

But more than that, how do you even get to pick a target? That too is part of the descriptive text.

If you get to use the descriptive text to decide how targeting works, why wouldn't you use it to describe how the spell ending works?

 

[schnee]

This is a great conversation. I dig the chains of logic here, but I think this whole thing is getting to the point of splitting hairs to a degree that is contra-indicated by the simplicity of 5E.

So, if you have to follow a decision tree of THAT level of complexity and detail, even if that might be the most logical thing to do - all things being equal - then it's better to rule on the side of simplicity, since the rules are unequally biased towards that.

I admit, it's 'game-ist' more than 'simulationist', and you may not agree, but I saw the consequences of an overtly simulationist mindset most strongly expressed in 3E and that 'broke' the game. (Or, more accurately, gave really crafty optimizing people tons of rules support to 'break' the game.) 3E and 4E also suffered from a complexity problem of having to manage multiple status states in parallel that interacted in weird ways, that increased bookkeeping to a paralyzing degree at high levels.

Since stacking has been nerfed, most other spells just 'overlap' in a way that doesn't give more than one effect, and an overall effort to eliminate complex bookkeeping has been built in, I would go one of two ways:

1) Only highest Booming Blade takes effect, that one spellcaster rolls damage.
2) Every Booming Blade caster rolls damage, and only the highest takes effect. (Basically, riffing off of 'Advantage'.)

I'm leaning towards #2, because there should be *some* benefit to hitting someone with multiple Booming Blades, since it isn't a static numeric effect.