doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
No, it isn’t. No more than having cantrips is.Because, like SA, Extra Attack is an extra-damage feature.
No, it isn’t. No more than having cantrips is.Because, like SA, Extra Attack is an extra-damage feature.
So, what's being able to hit people with a big chunk of metal? Losing damage?No, it isn’t. No more than having cantrips is.
We may need a vote on whether a Warlord should have Extra Attack, I guess.
If a lot of warlord maneuvers are along the lines of "Make an attack and . . ." (grant an ally a buff, enemy a debuff etc) or "As an attack . . . " then extra attacks would give the class some inherent scaling.
If you put the extra attack at level 9 or 11 rather than 5, that should allay Tony''s fears of being considered an extra damage feature, since it will be close to matching a non-boosted cantrip. Thus it becomes a fall-back option that holds up the class theme rather than a focus of the class' power.
If a lot of warlord maneuvers are along the lines of "Make an attack and . . ." (grant an ally a buff, enemy a debuff etc) or "As an attack . . . " then extra attacks would give the class some inherent scaling.
If you put the extra attack at level 9 or 11 rather than 5, that should allay Tony''s fears of being considered an extra damage feature, since it will be close to matching a non-boosted cantrip. Thus it becomes a fall-back option that holds up the class theme rather than a focus of the class' power.
I mean, I’ll try to maintain enthusiasm for the project if it doesn’t have extra attack, but...it just seems bafflingly weird for the class to fall behind the absolute baseline warrior class damage before extra damage mechanics.
But they are a warrior. They’re not a front line damage dealer, but they’re still a warrior. They’re like the ranger, except hopefully designed well. If you don’t take damage spells, and find a support/exploration focused subclass, you aren’t going to be in the top half of damage in the party, but you can still fight competently when called upon.I don't think it's baffling at all. In fact, I think it makes total sense that a support class falls behind the main warrior class. Because they are a support class, not a baseline warrior. And have other features focusing on support rather than martial DPR.
But they are a warrior. They’re not a front line damage dealer, but they’re still a warrior. They’re like the ranger, except hopefully designed well. If you don’t take damage spells, and find a support/exploration focused subclass, you aren’t going to be in the top half of damage in the party, but you can still fight competently when called upon.
The warlord just gets support features instead of exploration features, and more support abilities than non support abilities.
Using extra attack with options to replace attacks with support manuevers allows the class to choose at each attack whether to focus on support, or to lead the attack.
And leading the attack should not be a secondary archetype siloed into a subclass. It should be one of the primary ways to build nearly any member of the class.
whether it’s a vanguard, an outlaw, a rabble rouser, or yes, tactician, everybroad type of warlord should be capable of leading from the front.
The idea of leading the attack being a tertiary thing that only 1 or two subclasses get is just...absolutely bonkers!
Hey, Ranger is my favorite class.
Nod. While you were out, 3e (BoED) did introduce a Pacifist option, mainly for the Cleric, that pretty dramatically avoided much attacking. The Pacifist Cleric was brought back (at some point) in 4e, and the Tactical Warlord had, initially, a few maneuvers that gave it's attack action to an ally, making it 'not attacking' (really, attacking in different way), and, fairly quickly, a variety of such powers were put out that allowed a fairly complete build that eschewed attacking on its own for action-granting and the like, 4e also introduced a Shaman build that was able to focus on action-granting, and attack- and action-granting was a minor feature of other leaders, too.*Edit And I"m not sure why you keep saying this "non attacking" class. Every class attacks. Just in different ways....
Nobody is arguing for that. Stop making up arguments and attributing them to me.You want it to be as good as a fighter and also do all these other things to support the party. You can't do that in 5e. You gotta pick and choose. Be a fighter with a few support options, or be a support class with a lot of options, but don't do as much dpr.
Nobody is arguing for that. Stop making up arguments and attributing them to me.
Baseline warrior damage =\= fighter damage. If i has meant fighter, I’d have said fighter.I'm not doing that. I'm directly responding to your statements like this:
"..it just seems bafflingly weird for the class to fall behind the absolute baseline warrior class damage ..."
You literally just said it makes no sense for the warlord to be not as good as the baseline fighter in damage. So if you want that, you have to be limited in support options (just like all fighter subclasses are limited in how many things they can do, none of which satisfy the pro warlord crowd. Same with monk and paladin. How many damage boosting things do they have (you also have to give the warlord more armor and weapon prof than a monk, so there's a trade off for that that needs to be done as well)? Those two classes only have a few options, and it seems like people want the warlord to have many options (which I agree with).
Everything is a trade off needed for balance. Looking at all of these warlord design threads over the years, people want the warlord to have many options geared towards support. The cost of that is to not be as good as a baseline fighter, because baseline fighters don't have nearly enough other options to replace for what people want out of the warlord.
So choose. Either have a warlord that is as good as a baseline fighter but with few support options, or one that has many options, but doesn't have the marital dpr output of a fighter.
Baseline warrior damage =\= fighter damage. If i has meant fighter, I’d have said fighter.
I don't think we can make any informed speculation about why the Warlord has been excluded (even if we have seen the whole of 4e, prior editions, the tongue-in-cheek 'devestation' of the edition war, and stayed on top of the two year public playtest, it's hard to say what they were thinking... heck, it always is). There's no precedent of the Warlord being the equal of the fighter (or any defender) in that role, though, and I don't think dbw is actually trying assert that it should be, just feels that the first extra attack, since so many classes (& sub-classes) have it isn't out of line for, well, anyone, really.This is the big problem with the warlord, and why it hasn't been created. You want it to be as good as a fighter and also do all these other things to support the party.
You had even less latitude to poach on other 'roles' in 4e, where they were formalized. A 4e Cleric, for instance, did not have nearly the Controller capability of the Wizard, a whole 'nuther 'Divine Controller' Class, the Invoker, was created for that. In 5e, through spell choice, a Cleric can be very good at control or support, prettymuch from one day to the next, or even just good at both, emphasizing one or the other round by round since casting is spontaneous.You can't do that in 5e. You gotta pick and choose.
That's the give and take I'm talking about. If it's a support class, then treat i like every other support class. We have plenty of examples of how that could be done. Git rid of extra attack for the ability to have a pool of at will warlord abilities that scale with level, or broaden the number of total maneuvers they can learn and utilize per long rest, something. All the other warrior classes (fighter, ranger, paladin, barbarian) don't have enough other things to trade out and still get the extra attacks.