D&D 5E "But Wizards Can Fly, Teleport and Turn People Into Frogs!"

[Garthanos]

i am picturing a situation where you are, even if not substantially, lowering your defense in some way to provoke an attack.

Whatever it is.. its not going to fool or induce the all seeing DM..

 

[Manbearcat]

[video=youtube;6_c2AKaK4EE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_c2AKaK4EE[/video]

First 30 seconds of this classic Anderson Silva vs Forest Griffin knockout. Looks a lot like Come and Get It, doesn't it? Anderson Silva definitely hasn't truly lowered his guard such that he can't defend himself or counterattack, yes? No "mind control" there, yes? Anderson Silva defeating Forest Griffin's Will defense causing him to recklessly move forward and engage, setting him up for a devastating counterattack? Oh yes.

 

[Guest 85555]

[video=youtube;6_c2AKaK4EE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_c2AKaK4EE[/video]

First 30 seconds of this classic Anderson Silva vs Forest Griffin knockout. Looks a lot like Come and Get It, doesn't it? Anderson Silva definitely hasn't truly lowered his guard such that he can't defend himself or counterattack, yes? No "mind control" there, yes? Anderson Silva defeating Forest Griffin's Will defense causing him to recklessly move forward and engage, setting him up for a devastating counterattack? Oh yes.

MIT is debatable. I have done mms as well and I would say he is in fact lowering his guard. He is doing it well and compensating by bringing his head back to make it less of a target, but still exposing himself a bit more to lure him in

 

[Garthanos]

MIT is debatable. I have done mms as well and I would say he is in fact lowering his guard. He is doing it well and compensating by bringing his head back to make it less of a target, but still exposing himself a bit more to lure him in

False openings have potential risk and its one way to ameliorate there power but Enough to induce a DM to simply decide the enemy takes the bait because its mechanically sound choice ummm ... NOPE

That is why we rely on character skill.... and a die roll.

 

[Garthanos]

Decieving the DM without some rock paper scissors mechanic? probably not happening.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You are moving them to a precise spot. That is total control. I never said it was the same as dominate.

I think it becomes splitting of hairs. For one second you have manipulated your enemy into moving a few feet closer to you. There's a vs WILL attack, and then one time he moves a bit if he fails. Especially given the degree to which turns in a combat round are an abstraction I never personally experienced it as controlling the other guy. The analogy would be to any of many leader powers that allow you to slide your allies around. I think we can all agree that A) the leader doesn't have total control of the other PC, and B) that this doesn't represent literally puppeting the other character around. It could represent giving advice to the other PC and changing their actions (via a slight retcon presumably) or inspiring them to extra action, etc.

 

[Garthanos]

If the game rejects common fencing moves (invitations) as well as fantasy tricks (ala Bilbos taunting) ... and false openings readily seen in boxing, shrug not sure what positive I can say about it.

 

[Garthanos]

I think it becomes splitting of hairs. For one second you have manipulated your enemy into moving a few feet closer to you. There's a vs WILL attack, and then one time he moves a bit if he fails. Especially given the degree to which turns in a combat round are an abstraction I never personally experienced it as controlling the other guy. The analogy would be to any of many leader powers that allow you to slide your allies around. I think we can all agree that A) the leader doesn't have total control of the other PC, and B) that this doesn't represent literally puppeting the other character around. It could represent giving advice to the other PC and changing their actions (via a slight retcon presumably) or inspiring them to extra action, etc.

Or creating a fresh opening which is obvious for the ally by attacking the enemy.... technically doesnt have to involve communication at all.

Roleplaying Guidelines for a Warlord

If you're trying to marry a more skilled, less verbally assertive concept to the combat powers, imagine that they're not commands, but openings that your fellows perceive and act upon. Instead of telling your teammate to take another swing, you're creating an opening for them (that they see and take advantage of without any more prompting from you than the creation of the opportunity itself). Someone with as much imagination, as much training with a sword and as much insight into the way people (and sentient creatures in general) think as he would not settle for a style of fighting that only led the opponent into exposing itself to his own counterstrokes; he'd take pride in managing his enemy so thoroughly that they had to expose themselves on all other sides but his just to keep his blade from their throat.

You're not just using your weapon as a cutting tool to hack apart one target; you're conducting the entire fight with it, hammering a flank here, feinting and falling back there, leading the targets of your strokes in a way that leads the other combatants in response, until the whole of the melee is dancing in time to the thrust of your swordpoint.

You want an ally in that square? You flick a quick stroke at his opponent's knee and cause it to give him the square to avoid your attack. You score a seemingly minor hit, and while the foe congratulates itself on turning your death stroke into a glancing cut, the real killing blow comes in from behind . . . just as you planned. Ten minutes ago.

When you grant a healing surge, you've merely guided the flow of combat so that your winded ally has time to get her breath. You've taken the heat off, so to speak. Perhaps it was something as crude as making a remark that drew her opponent's attention briefly, or maybe your footwork caused your target to shift around to compensate, which cut off the opportunity her opponent was setting up, or maybe there were half a dozen other unwitting participants involved in the maneuver, which you set up well in advance with almost precognitive precision. Or maybe you've done nothing at all - mechanically the surge was granted by your character, but that doesn't mean the story demands your character to act for the other character to get hit points back. Granting a healing surge is a matter of mechanics; taking credit for it by narrating an action on your character's part is optional.

And, of course, your character would show the same level of tact and finesse out of combat. He is trained and naturally gifted in maneuvering other people. He delights in ordering the things around him to his advantage. The cut and thrust of politics is no less deadly than pitched battle; it's just less messy.

I didnt write the above I wish I had saved the name of the poster who composed it... instead of just the body of it.

 

[Guest 85555]

If the game rejects common fencing moves (invitations) as well as fantasy tricks (ala Bilbos taunting) ... and false openings readily seen in boxing, shrug not sure what positive I can say about it.

It doesn't have to reject them. I used boxing as an analogy because its a sport I understand well to basically say I am not so sure what people say is going on in tge fencing example is necessarily the case. but either way, 4E certainly doesnt feel like being immersed in combat for me. I just don't feel come and get it captures the things people are describing well, largely because you can only do it once per encounter and it forces the opponent to move adjacent to you. If it works for you, by all means continue using it. Just not the sort of mechanic I am interested in for fighters. YMMV.

 

[Guest 85555]

False openings have potential risk and its one way to ameliorate there power but Enough to induce a DM to simply decide the enemy takes the bait because its mechanically sound choice ummm ... NOPE

That is why we rely on character skill.... and a die roll.

That is one approach. The other is reflect the opening by lowering the AC but provide a corresponding bonus to the pcs attack. The GM is then has a possible incentive to go in for the attack. It is just one idea though, but I do think it works better for me than cagi