D&D 5E "But Wizards Can Fly, Teleport and Turn People Into Frogs!"

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I find it very unbelievable they are going to switch weapons upon seeing an opening and stepforward.

Ymmv.

And it is exactly because of this variation in "believability" that the power "works everytime" in a reliable way (attack vs. will) as defined in the rules. It doesn't assume that the DM will take off his omniscient hat, and move forward to attack. It doesn't assume that a particular threshold of believability has to be satisfied. It simply abstracts it as an attack vs. will against the NPC. It doesn't depend on the DM believing that the opening is there. It depends on the NPC believing that it's there. With a successful attack the NPC "believes" it and acts according to the trick.

If the maneuver was simply left to a "DM believability threshold" it would work extremely erratically from table to table. It would usually disadvantage the player that took the manuever, so that his PC could perform it. The player expends a resource in the action economy (an action), but he only gets a payoff if the DM believes it? So does the PC get an action back, if the DM decides that "He doesn't believe it", or is the action wasted?

There is a reason why the martial maneuvers behave mechanically as they do. They don't depend on DM fiat, or "believability threshold" to work. They are reliable in their mechanical implementation. An attack vs. will is a reliable methodology that takes the PC skill in combat and pits it against the NPC skill in combat. It does not rely on an esoterical, and ill-defined "believability threshold" on the part of the opposing Out of Charater DM. It relies solely on an in-character metagame abstraction - PC vs. NPC, not PC vs. DM.
 

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You could do anything you want. But you take the penalty because you are creating an opening in your defenses (thus the ac penalty) to attract the target. Smething like a -2 penaltyto the opponent, i just am having trouble understanding what you are doing exactly. What can I do to you that would make your defenses weaker unless you moved where I want you to?
The exact penalty being imposed on the opponent is not the issue. The point I was making is that my preference is not for the PC to take a penalty in order to induce the opponent to do what he wants, but for the opponent to take the penalty or do what the PC wants.
 

The exact penalty being imposed on the opponent is not the issue. The point I was making is that my preference is not for the PC to take a penalty in order to induce the opponent to do what he wants, but for the opponent to take the penalty or do what the PC wants.

Okay. Then our preferences are different.
 

And it is exactly because of this variation in "believability" that the power "works everytime" in a reliable way (attack vs. will) as defined in the rules. It doesn't assume that the DM will take off his omniscient hat, and move forward to attack. It doesn't assume that a particular threshold of believability has to be satisfied. It simply abstracts it as an attack vs. will against the NPC. It doesn't depend on the DM believing that the opening is there. It depends on the NPC believing that it's there. With a successful attack the NPC "believes" it and acts according to the trick.

.

Except this method disrupts my sense of believability. So clearly it isn't universally better on those grounds.
 

That D&D posits the role of an omnipotent GM is precisely what is at stake in the contrast between approaches. You take that view (which I described upthread as "unbridled GM force").
I find the idea that a DM could "cheat" or that rules could supersede his judgment equally controvrersial.

I think the role of the GM, in 4e and in classic D&D, is tightly constrained. (Eg in classic D&D a GM who introduces an extra complication to stop the PCs getting the gold through some clever stratagem is cheating.)
I am in the process of moving and don't have easy access to the books themselves, but even from memory, there are a number of passages that address the issue clearly in the 3e books (mostly the DMG and DMGII), including the "rule zero" text but also repeatedly throughout the basic descriptions of how skills work (i.e. the DM sets DCs and decides if and when rolls need to be made), the "DM's best friend" text (the DM should apply modifiers to any die roll based on his assessment of the circumstances), the DMGII bit about die rolling conventions and fudging (which notes that "DM's can't cheat").

References aside, I think it's pretty clear from the way the books are delineated as to what the DM is in charge of; i.e. there is a DMG that tells you how to referee and how the world outside the PCs works. I don't know what the "classic" DMGs have to say, but IIRC one of the most quoted passages from one of the earlier ones emphasizes that the rules exist to promote and enjoyable game and should be used only as appropriate to achieve that goal.

What you're suggesting (designer force, if you will), is that in at least some iterations of D&D, the text explicitly requires you to use the basic rules (hit points, saving throws, skills or their earlier iterations, whatever), even if those rules produce results that are nonsensical, unbalanced, or simply not fun. I'm skeptical of that approach. I think it's always been the case that the rules can and should be changed or ignored, and I think the DM has always clearly been in charge of adjudicating when that should happen.

As a separate but related issue, I don't believe there has ever been much in the way of narrative control mechanisms for players in any version of D&D. At the moment, we're talking about the DM's judgment versus hard rules, but the players don't have much of a say either way.

You can see this type of constraint to an even greater extent in (say) Marvel Heroic Roleplaying, where the GM has a finite though manipulable and growable resource (the Doom Pool) and must spend Doom Pool resources to do things like split the heroes ("The floor collapses under Cyclops and he drops out of sight!") or have Captain America's shield not return when thrown or bring a scene to an abrupt close.
Indeed. That is a game that clearly posits different roles for the participants. I'm mildly curious to try it out. It's quite a paradigm shift from D&D though.

Roleplaying is negotiated imagination. In order for any thing to be true in game, all the participants in the game (players and GMs, if you've even got such things) have to understand and assent to it. When you're roleplaying, what you're doing is a) suggesting things that might be true in the game and then b) negotiating with the other participants to determine whether they're actually true or not.
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So look, you! Mechanics might model the stuff of the game world, that's another topic, but they don't exist to do so. They exist to ease and constrain real-world social negotiation between the players at the table. That's their sole and crucial function.
And they provide a framework for that negotiation by modeling how the game world works. At least, in some cases; in a more narravivist/storygame approach, they might provide a different framework.

So you're sitting at the table and one player says, "[let's imagine that] an orc jumps out of the underbrush!"

What has to happen before the group agrees that, indeed, an orc jumps out of the underbrush?
Well, that depends on what the group wants. Many of those things fall under modeling the world. The group must agree that there could conceivably be an orc, and that it could conceivably be hidden there and be jumping out now. That's the world modeling function of the rules. D&D generally addresses these sorts of questions.

Then, there could also be a set of other considerations. Is it enjoyable and interesting to meet this orc? Is the orc a balanced or fair encounter at this moment? Does the orc fit thematically with the events going on at the moment? Do we have enough tome (in the real world) to deal with this issue before we have to leave? D&D generally doesn't explicitly address these issues. An rpg could do so, but it's not necessary to do so. Certainly issues outside of modeling the game world ("balance", "fun", "immersin", etc.) are more abstract and more variable and more difficult to address with game rules. Whether this effort is worth the trouble and sacrifice is something for a game designer to try and decide. However, to my knowledge, D&D doesn't go there much. I don't know any version of D&D that gives players a say or not in whether the orc jumps out of the underbrush or outlines any sort of negotiation on that issue.
 

People may have raised this issue, but it isnt the heart of our argument at all. I didnt even notice this line of reasoning until you brought it up. Most of the focus has been on forcing the other guy to move. And that seems to boil down to how one perceieves the shift to your adjacent square (you clearly see that as a lure, but we dont).

I think we've dragged this on way too long however. I can accept that you find it believable. Just asking you accept I dont find it believable. I really dont think it should be this much of an issue for people.

Umm, how can you not see it as a lure, when the power specifically states that it is so?

Come and Get It Flavor text said:
You brandish your weapon and call out to your foes, luring them
close through their overconfidence, and then deliver a spinning strike
against them all

Considering that it actually uses the word "lure" in the description, how can it not be a lure?
 

Except this method disrupts my sense of believability. So clearly it isn't universally better on those grounds.

So, basically, you're saying that no player at your table could ever make something like CaGI work, not because it's not possible, but because you, the DM don't believe it. IOW, there's no point in trying to ever feint in such a way to draw an opponent closer, because, no matter what, I will never succeed at your table.

And, not only that, but, we should never have these mechanics at any table, whether or not that table likes them, because it disrupts your sense of believability. Your sense of believability is the most important consideration here. The fact that you don't actually have to take this power doesn't matter.

The only criteria that matters is that you find it believable or not.
 

So, basically, you're saying that no player at your table could ever make something like CaGI work, not because it's not possible, but because you, the DM don't believe it. IOW, there's no point in trying to ever feint in such a way to draw an opponent closer, because, no matter what, I will never succeed at your table.

And, not only that, but, we should never have these mechanics at any table, whether or not that table likes them, because it disrupts your sense of believability. Your sense of believability is the most important consideration here. The fact that you don't actually have to take this power doesn't matter.

The only criteria that matters is that you find it believable or not.

Please dont put words in my mouth.
 

Umm, how can you not see it as a lure, when the power specifically states that it is so?



Considering that it actually uses the word "lure" in the description, how can it not be a lure?

They can use whatever word they want. They can say it is a banana, but that doesnt make it so unless I believe it. In the case of come and get it, when its used I dont feel like the character is being lured at all, i feel like he is being forced to move by a player to an adjacent square. Once again, you do not need to share my opinion. But that is my opinion of the power.
 

Ahn said:
What you're suggesting (designer force, if you will), is that in at least some iterations of D&D, the text explicitly requires you to use the basic rules (hit points, saving throws, skills or their earlier iterations, whatever), even if those rules produce results that are nonsensical, unbalanced, or simply not fun. I'm skeptical of that approach. I think it's always been the case that the rules can and should be changed or ignored, and I think the DM has always clearly been in charge of adjudicating when that should happen.

But, what's actually nonsensical, unbalanced or unfun? After all, any group that feels that any element fits any of those criteria will simply choose not to use those rules. So, what's the problem with actually having the option?

BRG and others have pretty clearly stated that their games will never feature a player being able to directly cause an NPC to take an action, barring magical intervention. Thus, at those tables, the three powers which can cause an NPC to take an action will not be used. Thus leaving the other 290 powers still on the table which are not at issue.

For those of us who have no problem wrapping our heads around these powers, the option is there and the mechanics are a nicely packaged deal.

Isn't more options better than less? Why do your particular tastes trump mine?
 

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