Dannager
First Post
Who is playing the character is irrelevant? You'll have to back that one up, because I can easily think of reasons that NPCs and PCs exist which are fundamentally different.
D&D 5E "But Wizards Can Fly, Teleport and Turn People Into Frogs!"
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Who is playing the character is irrelevant? You'll have to back that one up, because I can easily think of reasons that NPCs and PCs exist which are fundamentally different.
Ahnehnois
First Post
Build a character. Play that character for one session. Then give the character to someone else. Have them play the character for one session. Now retire the character, and give him to the DM to play as an NPC. Was the character mechanically different in those sessions? Do his abilities change?
It's no more complicated than that.
Manbearcat
Legend
@Ahnehnois
Here are two different Fighters (I'm not even going to bring in a Wizard, Rogue, or Cleric at this point) through level 3 (spoiling them for space and so people who don't care can move on). Standard array for both. I'm just using human for both (+ 2 to one attribute, + 1 feat, + 1 to Fort, Ref, Will). Attribute bonus goes in their secondary (Dex and Con respectively). 1) What are each of these characters built for/what are they good at and 2) what is going to be the tactical modus operandi for each of these characters? This is within a single class. Do you see "sameness" there? And do you see "more sameness" than ever before in D&D?
This is not much reading compared to the entirety of the core books (which, in spite of that considerable material, you were able to read, absorb, comprehend and make extrapolations from which you are clearly comfortable with) so I'm hoping that this isn't too much trouble to read, absorb, comprehend and make extrapolations from. Here is a small jargon key for your reference:
OA = opportunity attack or attack of opportunity in 3.x
Shift = 5 ft step in 3.x; eg no OA.
Slide 1 = move the enemy 1 square in any direction.
Invigorating Keyword = temporary HP equal to Con.
Immediate Interrupt = your action ocurrs immediately before the action that triggers it.
Immediate Reaction = your action ocurrs immediately after the action that triggers it.
Build 1:
[sblock]Courtesy of WotC 4e D&D
Level 3 Human Tempest Fighter
Str 16
Con 13
Dex 16
Int 11
Wis 12
Cha 10
Initiative + 4
HPs 40
Healing Surges/value 10/10
AC 18
Fortitude 15
Reflex 16
Will 13
Speed 6
Negative to physical checks/skills - 1
Short Swords * 2; + 9 to hit/1d6 + 6
Hide Armor + 3 AC
Features
Combat Agility - Provoked OAs let you shift your Dex mod to any square adjacent and attack (MBA) + prone rider.
Combat Challenge - When you attack (hit or miss) an enemy, you mark them; - 2 to hit anyone but you and if they attack anyone but you or shift, you get an OA on them.
Tempest Technique - 2WF feat (+ 1 AC and Ref). When wielding offhand weapons (short sword, handaxe, double sword) and light armor of chainmail (you'll be wearing Leather or Hide with this build and using your Dex), you get + 1 to hit and + 2 to damage.
Feats
Light Blade Expertise: + 1 to hit/tier and + 1 damage/tier when you have combat advantage.
Deadly Draw: Whenever you pull or slide an enemy to a square adjacent to you, you gain combat advantage against that enemy until the end of your next turn.
Two-Weapon Fighting: + 1 damage.
At-Wills
Dual Strike
You lash out quickly and follow up faster, delivering two small wounds.
At-Will Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Primary Target: One creature
Primary Attack: Strength vs. AC (main weapon)
Hit: 1[W] damage.
Effect: Make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: One creature other than the primary target
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC (off-hand weapon)
Hit: 1[W] damage.
Footwork Lure
You press the attack, engaging your enemy before falling back and drawing him after you.
At-Will Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. You can shift 1 square and slide the target 1 square into the space you left.
Threatening Rush
You storm into the midst of your foes, ensuring that their attacks are directed against you.
At-Will Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] damage, and you mark each enemy adjacent to you until the end of your next turn.
Special: When charging, you can use this power in place of a melee basic attack.
Encounters
Funneling Flurry
With snakelike strikes, you force two of your enemies to move where you want them.
Encounter Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Targets: Two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC (main weapon and off-hand weapon), one attack per target
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square.
Sudden Sprint
You put on a burst of speed as you launch yourself toward a foe.
Encounter Martial
Minor Action Personal
Prerequisite: You must have training in Athletics.
Effect: You move a number of squares up to your Dexterity modifier to a square adjacent to an enemy.
Rain of Blows
You become a blur of motion, raining a series of blows upon your opponent.
Encounter Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC. Make the attack twice against the target.
Hit: 1[W] damage.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a flail, a light blade, or a spear and have Dexterity 15 or higher, make the attack a third time against either the target or a different creature.
Daily
Tempest Dance
You lunge from enemy to enemy, giving each a taste of your weapon as you pass.
Daily Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. If you have combat advantage against the target, the attack deals extra damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.
Effect: You can shift 1 square and repeat the attack against a second target. You can then shift 1 square and repeat the attack against a third target.[/sblock]
Build 2:
[sblock]Courtesy of WotC 4e D&D
Level 3 Human Berserker Fighter
Str 16
Con 16
Dex 12
Int 11
Wis 13
Cha 10
Initiative + 4
HPs 43
Healing Surges/value 12/10
AC 19
Fortitude 17
Reflex 15
Will 12
Speed 5
Negative to physical checks/skills - 3
Battle Axe; + 7 to hit/1d10 + 6
Chain Mail Armor + 3 AC
Heavy Shield
Features
Combat Challenge - When you attack (hit or miss) an enemy, you mark them; - 2 to hit anyone but you and if they attack anyone but you or shift, you get an OA against them.
Combat Superiority - Wisdom bonus to attack rolls of OAs and an an enemy hit by an OA stops moving and loses the move action.
Battlerager Vigor - Whenever you hit an enemy with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier, plus any temporary hit points normally granted by the power. You gain the hit points only after the attack is resolved. If you use an attack power with invigorating keyword and you miss, you still gain Con temporary hit points. Finally, when wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks (+ 2 with axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick) whenever you have temporary hit points.
Feats
Improved Vigor: You gain a +1 feat bonus to the number of temporary hit points you gain from using an invigorating power. The bonus increases to 2 at 11th level and 3 at 21st level.
Shield Defense: When you hit with a power that requires a shield, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex until the end of your next turn or until you stop using the shield.
Axe Expertise: + 1 to hit/tier and you can reroll one damage roll that results in a 1.
At-Wills
Resolute Shield
As you slash into your foe, you pull your shield into a defensive position between the two of you, guaranteeing that it absorbs at least some of your enemy’s attack.
At-Will Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be using a shield.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you gain resist equal to your Constitution modifier against the target’s attacks until the end of your next turn.
Tide of Iron
After each swing, you use your shield to shove your foe backward, and then you surge ahead.
At-Will Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be using a shield.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you can push the target 1 square if it is no larger than one size category larger than you. You can then shift 1 square into the space that the target left.
Crushing Surge
The feel of your weapon crunching against the enemy puts your heart back in the fight.
At-Will Invigorating, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Encounters
Shield Riposte
Sweeping an attack aside, you strike with your shield while your foe is out of position.
Encounter Martial
Immediate Reaction Melee 1
Requirement: You must be using a shield.
Trigger: An enemy adjacent to you hits or misses you or an ally with a melee attack
Target: The triggering enemy
Attack: Strength + 3 vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d10 + Strength modifier damage, and you push the target 1 square. You then shift 2 squares to a square adjacent to the target.
Shielded Sides
You whirl with your shield, concentrating on closing any holes in your defenses.
Encounter Martial
Minor Action Personal
Requirement: You must be using a shield.
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, you gain a +2 power bonus to AC and Reflex and do not grant combat advantage to creatures flanking you.
Shield Edge Block
You block your foe’s attack with a quick slam of your shield’s edge, striking a powerful blow in the process.
Encounter Martial
Immediate Interrupt Melee 1
Requirement: You must be using a shield.
Trigger: An enemy adjacent to you hits or misses you with a close or a melee attack
Target: The triggering enemy
Effect: The target takes a –4 penalty to the attack roll.
Attack: Strength + 2 vs. Fortitude
Hit: 2d6 + Strength modifier damage.
Daily
Knee Breaker
By smashing into your opponent’s legs, you make even the thought of moving painful for him.
Daily Invigorating, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is slowed (save ends). If the target is already slowed, it is instead immobilized (save ends).
Weapon: If you’re wielding an axe, a hammer, or a mace, the attack deals extra damage equal to your Constitution modifier.
Miss: Half damage, and the target is not slowed or immobilized.[/sblock]
Here are two different Fighters (I'm not even going to bring in a Wizard, Rogue, or Cleric at this point) through level 3 (spoiling them for space and so people who don't care can move on). Standard array for both. I'm just using human for both (+ 2 to one attribute, + 1 feat, + 1 to Fort, Ref, Will). Attribute bonus goes in their secondary (Dex and Con respectively). 1) What are each of these characters built for/what are they good at and 2) what is going to be the tactical modus operandi for each of these characters? This is within a single class. Do you see "sameness" there? And do you see "more sameness" than ever before in D&D?
This is not much reading compared to the entirety of the core books (which, in spite of that considerable material, you were able to read, absorb, comprehend and make extrapolations from which you are clearly comfortable with) so I'm hoping that this isn't too much trouble to read, absorb, comprehend and make extrapolations from. Here is a small jargon key for your reference:
OA = opportunity attack or attack of opportunity in 3.x
Shift = 5 ft step in 3.x; eg no OA.
Slide 1 = move the enemy 1 square in any direction.
Invigorating Keyword = temporary HP equal to Con.
Immediate Interrupt = your action ocurrs immediately before the action that triggers it.
Immediate Reaction = your action ocurrs immediately after the action that triggers it.
Build 1:
[sblock]Courtesy of WotC 4e D&D
Level 3 Human Tempest Fighter
Str 16
Con 13
Dex 16
Int 11
Wis 12
Cha 10
Initiative + 4
HPs 40
Healing Surges/value 10/10
AC 18
Fortitude 15
Reflex 16
Will 13
Speed 6
Negative to physical checks/skills - 1
Short Swords * 2; + 9 to hit/1d6 + 6
Hide Armor + 3 AC
Features
Combat Agility - Provoked OAs let you shift your Dex mod to any square adjacent and attack (MBA) + prone rider.
Combat Challenge - When you attack (hit or miss) an enemy, you mark them; - 2 to hit anyone but you and if they attack anyone but you or shift, you get an OA on them.
Tempest Technique - 2WF feat (+ 1 AC and Ref). When wielding offhand weapons (short sword, handaxe, double sword) and light armor of chainmail (you'll be wearing Leather or Hide with this build and using your Dex), you get + 1 to hit and + 2 to damage.
Feats
Light Blade Expertise: + 1 to hit/tier and + 1 damage/tier when you have combat advantage.
Deadly Draw: Whenever you pull or slide an enemy to a square adjacent to you, you gain combat advantage against that enemy until the end of your next turn.
Two-Weapon Fighting: + 1 damage.
At-Wills
Dual Strike
You lash out quickly and follow up faster, delivering two small wounds.
At-Will Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Primary Target: One creature
Primary Attack: Strength vs. AC (main weapon)
Hit: 1[W] damage.
Effect: Make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: One creature other than the primary target
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC (off-hand weapon)
Hit: 1[W] damage.
Footwork Lure
You press the attack, engaging your enemy before falling back and drawing him after you.
At-Will Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. You can shift 1 square and slide the target 1 square into the space you left.
Threatening Rush
You storm into the midst of your foes, ensuring that their attacks are directed against you.
At-Will Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] damage, and you mark each enemy adjacent to you until the end of your next turn.
Special: When charging, you can use this power in place of a melee basic attack.
Encounters
Funneling Flurry
With snakelike strikes, you force two of your enemies to move where you want them.
Encounter Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Targets: Two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC (main weapon and off-hand weapon), one attack per target
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square.
Sudden Sprint
You put on a burst of speed as you launch yourself toward a foe.
Encounter Martial
Minor Action Personal
Prerequisite: You must have training in Athletics.
Effect: You move a number of squares up to your Dexterity modifier to a square adjacent to an enemy.
Rain of Blows
You become a blur of motion, raining a series of blows upon your opponent.
Encounter Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC. Make the attack twice against the target.
Hit: 1[W] damage.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a flail, a light blade, or a spear and have Dexterity 15 or higher, make the attack a third time against either the target or a different creature.
Daily
Tempest Dance
You lunge from enemy to enemy, giving each a taste of your weapon as you pass.
Daily Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. If you have combat advantage against the target, the attack deals extra damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.
Effect: You can shift 1 square and repeat the attack against a second target. You can then shift 1 square and repeat the attack against a third target.[/sblock]
Build 2:
[sblock]Courtesy of WotC 4e D&D
Level 3 Human Berserker Fighter
Str 16
Con 16
Dex 12
Int 11
Wis 13
Cha 10
Initiative + 4
HPs 43
Healing Surges/value 12/10
AC 19
Fortitude 17
Reflex 15
Will 12
Speed 5
Negative to physical checks/skills - 3
Battle Axe; + 7 to hit/1d10 + 6
Chain Mail Armor + 3 AC
Heavy Shield
Features
Combat Challenge - When you attack (hit or miss) an enemy, you mark them; - 2 to hit anyone but you and if they attack anyone but you or shift, you get an OA against them.
Combat Superiority - Wisdom bonus to attack rolls of OAs and an an enemy hit by an OA stops moving and loses the move action.
Battlerager Vigor - Whenever you hit an enemy with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier, plus any temporary hit points normally granted by the power. You gain the hit points only after the attack is resolved. If you use an attack power with invigorating keyword and you miss, you still gain Con temporary hit points. Finally, when wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks (+ 2 with axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick) whenever you have temporary hit points.
Feats
Improved Vigor: You gain a +1 feat bonus to the number of temporary hit points you gain from using an invigorating power. The bonus increases to 2 at 11th level and 3 at 21st level.
Shield Defense: When you hit with a power that requires a shield, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex until the end of your next turn or until you stop using the shield.
Axe Expertise: + 1 to hit/tier and you can reroll one damage roll that results in a 1.
At-Wills
Resolute Shield
As you slash into your foe, you pull your shield into a defensive position between the two of you, guaranteeing that it absorbs at least some of your enemy’s attack.
At-Will Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be using a shield.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you gain resist equal to your Constitution modifier against the target’s attacks until the end of your next turn.
Tide of Iron
After each swing, you use your shield to shove your foe backward, and then you surge ahead.
At-Will Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be using a shield.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you can push the target 1 square if it is no larger than one size category larger than you. You can then shift 1 square into the space that the target left.
Crushing Surge
The feel of your weapon crunching against the enemy puts your heart back in the fight.
At-Will Invigorating, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Encounters
Shield Riposte
Sweeping an attack aside, you strike with your shield while your foe is out of position.
Encounter Martial
Immediate Reaction Melee 1
Requirement: You must be using a shield.
Trigger: An enemy adjacent to you hits or misses you or an ally with a melee attack
Target: The triggering enemy
Attack: Strength + 3 vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d10 + Strength modifier damage, and you push the target 1 square. You then shift 2 squares to a square adjacent to the target.
Shielded Sides
You whirl with your shield, concentrating on closing any holes in your defenses.
Encounter Martial
Minor Action Personal
Requirement: You must be using a shield.
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, you gain a +2 power bonus to AC and Reflex and do not grant combat advantage to creatures flanking you.
Shield Edge Block
You block your foe’s attack with a quick slam of your shield’s edge, striking a powerful blow in the process.
Encounter Martial
Immediate Interrupt Melee 1
Requirement: You must be using a shield.
Trigger: An enemy adjacent to you hits or misses you with a close or a melee attack
Target: The triggering enemy
Effect: The target takes a –4 penalty to the attack roll.
Attack: Strength + 2 vs. Fortitude
Hit: 2d6 + Strength modifier damage.
Daily
Knee Breaker
By smashing into your opponent’s legs, you make even the thought of moving painful for him.
Daily Invigorating, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is slowed (save ends). If the target is already slowed, it is instead immobilized (save ends).
Weapon: If you’re wielding an axe, a hammer, or a mace, the attack deals extra damage equal to your Constitution modifier.
Miss: Half damage, and the target is not slowed or immobilized.[/sblock]
Ahnehnois
First Post
In a word? Yes.
Dannager
First Post
It is more complicated than that, and it seems like that's an almost purposefully shallow examination of what goes on when you use a character in a roleplaying game.
No, his abilities don't change. The fundamental purposes for which those abilities are used do change, and as a result the way in which those abilities are used often changes.
By way of one (very minor) example among many, a PC party member Cleric and an NPC villain Cleric might both have access to the spell Remove Disease. Though they might be identical in construction, the former is much more likely to prepare Remove Disease than the latter, because diseases are things that PCs get while adventuring, and not something that they impart on enemies with any degree of regularity. Additionally, the function of most enemy NPCs is to "exist" (in the sense that they have a direct impact on the game itself) for the rough duration of a single encounter; since most diseases don't exhibit significant effects until a far greater amount of time has passed, that NPC villain Cleric would never have a reason to use Remove Disease even if (through some weird combination of events) he were to be infected. So while it may be reasonable from a world-based standpoint for that NPC villain to prepare Remove Disease, it is almost guaranteed to not matter in the course of actual gameplay, which in turn means that its preparation is simply taking up space in his spell list, cluttering it and contributing to option-overload for the DM (another NPC problem).
As I said, that's one example. The following is a further (incomplete) list of other examples, which I'll be happy to expand upon if you'd like (but that I hope I won't have to simply because at this point it should be pretty obvious that NPCs and PCs don't operate the same, even if they operate by the same rules): the experience point issue, party composition vs. encounter design, the comparative benefits of healing, asymmetrical encounter goals, the balancing act of the DM in running an adversarial encounter while simultaneously trying to preserve the flow of the game, the abilities-vs.-rounds-of-impact issue, PCs being designed iteratively while NPCs are designed on-the-spot, naturally-evolved equipment vs. generated equipment, the desire of PCs to be unique and memorable vs. the necessity of keeping many enemy NPCs straightforward to manage, etc.
For whatever reason, you are not giving this the level of examination it demands. I have my theories, but I'm not going to speculate on why that is right now. Hopefully this has given you cause to really take a look at what the differences between PCs and NPCs are, and why the rules for designing NPCs and PCs ought to be different because their design goals are typically different.
Last edited:
Siberys
Adventurer
I just want to point out that I /very much/ disagree with this. Structure-wise, 4e is 3e with heavily cleaned-up math and a couple of rules flipped (the change from saving throws to attacks for spells, for example). Except for a couple of basic changes born from the above and the character-building rules, they're very close to being the same game. I picked up 4e extremely easily /because/ of my familiarity with 3e.
Now compare 3e to 2e; if we're just talking a core book to core book comparison, 3e is mechanically miles from 2e. I couldn't use my familiarity with 3e at all to learn 2e, except on the descriptive side where edition doesn't really matter. (As I understand it, the Player's Option books closed the gap a bit, but I've little experience with those and late-cycle books are really outside the point I'm trying to make.)
Ahnehnois
First Post
Not necessarily.
Not necessarily. It may be that an evil cleric is less likely to prepare a healing spell, because he is evil. It may be something that a character who lives at the end of a dungeon and is expecting a fight doesn't think it's important. It may be that a character with a good fort save and a bunch of undead servants is not particularly worried about disease. But those considerations are independent of who is playing the character. That being said, I see more NPCs with Remove Disease than PCs, even evil ones; that's totally campaign dependent.
Most NPCs are not enemies, unless your campaign is the PCs against the world. But even if they are, those NPCs have lives, careers, and mechanics that go deeper than what we ever see "on screen" or in a game session. So do PCs. Their lives before the battle are not irrelevant. And even when NPCs are enemies, they may be ongoing foes, they may engage in a variety of activities before attacking, they may escape, they may be taken captive, they may take the PCs captive, they may change their mind and no longer be enemies. And PCs sometimes last only one combat encounter. So again, not necessarily.
Simplicity and depth are not antithetical. My examination makes fewer assumptions than yours; you make a plethora of generalizations that are not explicitly stated in the rules, are not natural consequences of those rules, and are not necessarily the case in any particular D&D game. In other words, it sounds to me like you are relying on your experiences to explain how the game works for people who are not you. Perhaps you should examine the issue further.
Manbearcat
Legend
So that is the extent of your engagement; a 1 word quip a few minutes after I outline two builds in detail. You're not going to even attempt to break down the above two builds and answer questions 1 and 2. I just extended you the courtesy of going a step further (and spending time on it) beyond the initial examination to try to extract your reasoning but you are clearly unwilling to engage on the subject. Very well. I won't waste my time in the future.
MarkB
Legend
Perhaps you could oblige with a set of two 3e Fighters (or edition of your choice) who display a greater disparity of features?
Obryn
Hero
I just wanted to ditto this. Coming from a game that used a lot of the excellent late-era 3.5 stuff, 4e felt like a natural extension of what we were already doing. Of course a familiarity with Star Wars Saga probably helped, too.
-O
- Status
