D&D 5E "But Wizards Can Fly, Teleport and Turn People Into Frogs!"

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How about the manoeuvres in Next? How many of those are acceptable as Fighter Only to you?
Mixed bag. I'd probably have to patch the system a lot to fix some of them; others are fine. The mode of delivery (dice/turn) doesn't bother me too much.

As I've said elsewhere, 5e isn't looking like my game of choice, but it's an improvement over the current standard.
 

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Overpowered fighting classes? Are you talking about 4e fighters?
No. I'm talking about 3e fighters (and barbarians, rogues, and various other nonmagical classes). The most overpowered character I can recall having was a barbarian. Paladins (beyond the alignment issues) have also caused problems. So have knights.

If by overpowered you mean, having cool tricks
Nope. I mean by being more powerful than the casters.
 

[MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION]

What I'm reading is basically a suggestion for transparency. Have a set of rules that defines "D&D reality", which is not necessarily 100% realistic but is grounded in reality and reflects a certain sensibility.

Then have specific add-ons that clearly posit supernatural abilities (and can be available to nonmagical characters).

There's nothing wrong with any of that in my mind; certainly the latter style has its appeal. It's just important that the rules clearly describe how the world of D&D works.
 

No. I'm talking about 3e fighters (and barbarians, rogues, and various other nonmagical classes). The most overpowered character I can recall having was a barbarian. Paladins (beyond the alignment issues) have also caused problems. So have knights.
Fascinating. I have not seen this pan out at any level in the 8 years I ran 3.x.

Didn't you also point out that you houseruled warriors in some way to make them stronger though?

Yep, found it:
And while we're on the subject, many of the houserules I use add more depth and more power to the nonmagical classes

Nope. I mean by being more powerful than the casters.
Do you mean bone-stock core-only 3.x? Your houseruled game? Core + splats? I need some basis for understanding what baseline you're using.

I played 3.x throughout its published life and the only thing I noticed was how unevenly power-creep affected casters vs non-casters. Warriors seemed to get stronger in a very linear fashion with each splat, while the casters would become exponentially better due to the sheer volume of spells that were added.

I'm not the only one who has experienced this, and I'm trying to gain a greater understanding of those who didn't have this issue. So far, the answer has been houseruling and lots of DM fiat.
 
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No. I'm talking about 3e fighters (and barbarians, rogues, and various other nonmagical classes). The most overpowered character I can recall having was a barbarian. Paladins (beyond the alignment issues) have also caused problems. So have knights.

Nope. I mean by being more powerful than the casters.

At what level? I made a 17th level ranger that was pretty sick...but I had to build it just right to be even that.
 

[MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION]

What I'm reading is basically a suggestion for transparency. Have a set of rules that defines "D&D reality", which is not necessarily 100% realistic but is grounded in reality and reflects a certain sensibility.

Then have specific add-ons that clearly posit supernatural abilities (and can be available to nonmagical characters).

There's nothing wrong with any of that in my mind; certainly the latter style has its appeal. It's just important that the rules clearly describe how the world of D&D works.
Pretty much. If we're going along with "one game for everyone", this would be a good place to plug in modularity. You can see some echoes of this line of thought with Pathfinder's "Mythic" recent supplements.

What I'd like to see (although I doubt everyone would) is a base game that only goes to a certain level (somewhere like 7-10). The base classes are fighter, thief, cleric (with heals) and wizard (with blasty and some tricksy spells). The standard games you higher level options, which function like Prestige Classes. Different packages of prestige classes can provide the thematic elements you want in your game.
 


Believable control does, I think, have a certain important in the viewpoint of critics of the AEDU structure. If the fighter has control over when he does a special maneuver that's more effective in some way than his more common attacks, why does he then lose control over when he can do it? What's a credible explanation for that? For some things, I can buy into the fatigue explanation, but then why can I do this other similarly once/day maneuver? Ultimately, a little rejiggering of the way dailies work can provide a more believable context by putting them in the same fatigue pool and making the dailies otherwise interchangeable.
I don't think of what is being represented as fatigue or anything like that; this is part of what I meant by "it's not as simplistic as that". Typically, what is being represented, as I see it in my mind, is opportunity. Something happens that allows an opening, if timed ane executed correctly, for a particularly effective "sucker move". What this opportunity consists of, exactly, will vary enormously - one instance a recognition of the enemy's intentions (from body language and focus of attention tracking, with consequent openings for trickery or invoking overconfidence), another a recognition of a weakness in the opponent's gear (giving openings to snag or pull them, or to cause distraction and consternation), yet another instance recognition of a psychological blindspot, hatred or similar vulnerability. Whatever the opportunity, part of the fighter's skill lies in noticing, recognising and knowing how to exploit these openings, whatever they are and however they arise.

Now, a question arises as to how such things should be modelled in the game. Perhaps the most "naturalistic" way would be to roll d1000 every turn and see what turned up on a table (where many or most of the entries are "nothing much", but maybe certain manoeuvres are designed to get better results on this table??). I imagine, though, that this would get old for most people pretty fast. For me I'd give it one combat.

4Es alternative is to let the player of the character choose when such opportunities occur. Of the individuals present, it seems to me that the player of the character is the best available choice, provided that they have clear limits on their agency, but others clearly disagree.

Older editions of D&D "solve" the problem by ignoring such moves entirely; I don't really find this a very satisfactory method, personally - that skilled fighters can never pull off such moves seems frankly rather unnatural.

Other systems have different approaches; HârnMaster, for all that it is long in the tooth and generally quite "old school", has an action economy and attack/defence move selection system that facilitates such moves "naturally" to a limited extent; a sort-of "partial solution", to my mind. Other games, such as RoleMaster from my (limited) understanding of it, deal with such moves through the "critical hit" system (i.e. treat them as random occurrences).

Of all of these, 4e's abstraction of the "opportunity" into a "limited choice" is the simplest by far, and it suits a particular ("Narrativist") play style well, apparently.

I would, however, really work to divorce Hussar's issue with 3x weapon crits and 3[W] damage powers. He's conflating two things that aren't the same issue at all. The crit in 3e represents the lucky blow/shot that anybody could get and is matched by 4e's somewhat simplified crit system. Neither are under the player's or PC's direct control although in both systems, the PC could take measures to improve their performance with that kind of luck. The 3[W] power really does reflect something directly under the PC's/player's control and is more akin to special maneuvers that a 3e PC might have via a feat. Apples and oranges, really.
I'm not so sure. Lucky shots or attacks that go amazingly well to plan, matching the attacker's intention better than might have been expected, are certainly one thing "critical hits" model. But it's clear that there are other cases where they model other circumstances besides this (I look at RoleMaster's and DragonQuest's critical hit tables to see proof). I think I could make a case for 4e's "critical hit" to be "just" an attack that goes very well to plan - the damage caused is only above the maximum that could theoretically be caused by a "non-critical" attack by virtue of enchantment effects. 3.x's damage multipliers, on the other hand - differentiated by weapon, to boot - seem to be trying to reflect something more.

I think there's a lot less difference here in the mundane's moves and the spellcasters' power moves. What I think we really have is the mundanes, fighter types mostly, have relatively consistent and steady output. They hit, they do damage, on a fairly consistent rate. Spellcasters, in older editions in particular, have a higher rate of failed actions (particularly at higher levels with the better saves of more powerful targets), but produce bigger spikes of output when they succeed. Factored together, they tend to balance reasonably well.
I don't think this is really the same issue as the relative power of "power moves" thing. FWIW I agree that older editions were better balanced for the fighter (I'm not so sure about the thief, but whatever). But the issue here is that D&D spellcasters get to spot an opportunity and exploit it. This "feels", to me, like exactly the sort of activity a fighter should be engaging in - it's almost the poster boy for what I see "realistic" medieval fighters doing all the time. And yet they can't do it - at all. It's what a fighter character's focus should be on throughout pretty much every fight - but all they get to think about is which enemy to belt next...
 


I don't think of what is being represented as fatigue or anything like that; this is part of what I meant by "it's not as simplistic as that". Typically, what is being represented, as I see it in my mind, is opportunity. Something happens that allows an opening, if timed ane executed correctly, for a particularly effective "sucker move". What this opportunity consists of, exactly, will vary enormously - one instance a recognition of the enemy's intentions (from body language and focus of attention tracking, with consequent openings for trickery or invoking overconfidence), another a recognition of a weakness in the opponent's gear (giving openings to snag or pull them, or to cause distraction and consternation), yet another instance recognition of a psychological blindspot, hatred or similar vulnerability. Whatever the opportunity, part of the fighter's skill lies in noticing, recognising and knowing how to exploit these openings, whatever they are and however they arise.

Now, a question arises as to how such things should be modelled in the game. Perhaps the most "naturalistic" way would be to roll d1000 every turn and see what turned up on a table (where many or most of the entries are "nothing much", but maybe certain manoeuvres are designed to get better results on this table??). I imagine, though, that this would get old for most people pretty fast. For me I'd give it one combat.

4Es alternative is to let the player of the character choose when such opportunities occur. Of the individuals present, it seems to me that the player of the character is the best available choice, provided that they have clear limits on their agency, but others clearly disagree.

Older editions of D&D "solve" the problem by ignoring such moves entirely; I don't really find this a very satisfactory method, personally - that skilled fighters can never pull off such moves seems frankly rather unnatural.

Other systems have different approaches; HârnMaster, for all that it is long in the tooth and generally quite "old school", has an action economy and attack/defence move selection system that facilitates such moves "naturally" to a limited extent; a sort-of "partial solution", to my mind. Other games, such as RoleMaster from my (limited) understanding of it, deal with such moves through the "critical hit" system (i.e. treat them as random occurrences).

Of all of these, 4e's abstraction of the "opportunity" into a "limited choice" is the simplest by far, and it suits a particular ("Narrativist") play style well, apparently.

Welcome to the believability problem many of us have with AEDU, particularly the D part for martial exploits. If the PC can force the opportunity once, why can't he force it again? We need a more believable model than the PC can only do so once a day. Fatigue would be a more useful model than the player's narrative control.
 

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