D&D 5E "But Wizards Can Fly, Teleport and Turn People Into Frogs!"

[Nemesis Destiny]

I can't know, of course, but I suspect at least a few of the '4e is just a tactical wargame/isn't a RPG' gripes were metagame averse players who didn't put into words what their complaint was.

I'm sure you're right.

That, and the gamer-culture that 3.x fostered was one of active hostility toward the very concept of metagaming in any form. The books, IIRC, had not a small amount to say on the matter and did a pretty good job of training readers into a mindset that "metagaming = bad."

 

[Hussar]

I would, however, really work to divorce Hussar's issue with 3x weapon crits and 3[W] damage powers. He's conflating two things that aren't the same issue at all. The crit in 3e represents the lucky blow/shot that anybody could get and is matched by 4e's somewhat simplified crit system. Neither are under the player's or PC's direct control although in both systems, the PC could take measures to improve their performance with that kind of luck. The 3[W] power really does reflect something directly under the PC's/player's control and is more akin to special maneuvers that a 3e PC might have via a feat. Apples and oranges, really.

Not quite.

My original point was, what's the difference in how you narrate either a 3W weapon daily or a X3 critical hit?

Yes, I understand the underlying differences. My point is, in the game world, they look identical.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Need someone to open the portal to the Netherlands? Arcane.

I'm picturing some weed-smoking Dutchmen looking up as a group of adventurers bursts in to their reality, shrugging, and eating some more brownies.

 

[Manbearcat]

That, and the gamer-culture that 3.x fostered was one of active hostility toward the very concept of metagaming in any form. The books, IIRC, had not a small amount to say on the matter and did a pretty good job of training readers into a mindset that "metagaming = bad."

It did. But its origins were truly in the 2e D&D culture. That was the only time in my life that I was ever connected to a "greater gaming culture" and boy was it metagame averse. The 3.x culture seemed to just be an extension of that. That cultural connection (metagame aversion) is likely why many feel that 3.x is much more a kindred spirit to 2e than 4e is to 3.x (even though both 3.x and 4e are d20 systems).

 

[Hussar]

And that works so long as the players understand the narrative pacing expectations and mould their power use to them. If the martial character uses his daily in the first encounter, he's no longer fighting 'more fiercely' at the next harder encounter nor can he step up his game in any meaningful way. Or he thinks he is, but the player knows better.

Or, conversely, he keeps looking for the opening that just never presents itself again.

Just like my 3e character not rolling another crit in the next encounter.

Again, can someone explain to me the in-game narrative difference between my character breaking out a 3W daily and a 3e 3X critical hit? Note, Billd91 isn't entirely accurate in the assessment that a 2X 3e crit is roughly the same as a 4e crit since 3e also doubles your strength bonus and any other non-variable bonus on your weapon due to magic or feats.

It's very, very possible for a 3e 2X critical hit to exceed your maximum damage. A 3X critical hit is almost guaranteed to exceed your max damage. So, no, there is only a slight correlation between a 3e and 4e critical hit.

And, also note, my Martial character will have multiple dailies in pretty short order. You are guaranteed to have one by 5th (thus you get 2 criticals/day) and it's possible to have 3 if your utility is also a daily. Although to be fair, that daily utility is likely not a combat oriented power. By the time you hit 9th, you've got 3 dailies/day. Just how many crits do you usually roll in an adventuring day?

Hey, if it breaks your immersion, that's fine. But, can someone please give me an example? Because, AFAIK, there isn't a heck of a lot of difference in game between a daily and a critical attack.

 

[Hussar]

I'm picturing some weed-smoking Dutchmen looking up as a group of adventurers bursts in to their reality, shrugging, and eating some more brownies.

ROTFLMAO. Ok, that made me giggle.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

It did. But its origins were truly in the 2e D&D culture. That was the only time in my life that I was ever connected to a "greater gaming culture" and boy was it metagame averse. The 3.x culture seemed to just be an extension of that. That cultural connection (metagame aversion) is likely why many feel that 3.x is much more a kindred spirit to 2e than 4e is to 3.x (even though both 3.x and 4e are d20 systems).

Yeah, I do recall (dimly now) that part of 2e culture. I played it through its entire published life as well, but I had never heard the term metagame until the 3e handbooks, probably because I wasn't pursuing a lot of D&D-related things online at the time.

Most of my arguments in the 2e era (while I was in middle- and high-school) were alignment issues, rather than metagame ones.

That said, I can understand where the aversion comes from, though I personally have no issues separating in-character knowledge from player knowledge and don't find that the rules of 4e really impinge on that separation.

These discussions, though heated, have really helped me understand some things and are basically the final nail in the coffin of any hope I may have had that 5e would support any of the things I really liked about 4e.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

These discussions, though heated, have really helped me understand some things and are basically the final nail in the coffin of any hope I may have had that 5e would support any of the things I really liked about 4e.

Now, to be fair, I'm nowhere near this cynical.

Looking at the 5e playtest rules as they stand, it would be ludicrously easy for them to publish a "This is a 4e Hack" for Next. I mean, we've already got the majority of people to accept Fighter Superiority Dice (or whatever they're called) which are a purely meta-game mechanic. I mean, sheesh, I can spend dice AFTER AN ATTACK to lessen damage. That's about as meta-game and disconnected as it gets.

So, layering on an AEDU structure isn't that much of a challenge. With the very flat math, we don't have to worry overmuch about the damage end of the powers - which isn't really the interesting bit anyway. The status effects and focus on tactical play wouldn't be that hard to add. An Encounters style structure is pretty much what we've already got.

I'm more worried about the other two pillars, but, I think the next rules update will see a lot of material there. At least, according to Mearls.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Now, to be fair, I'm nowhere near this cynical.

Looking at the 5e playtest rules as they stand, it would be ludicrously easy for them to publish a "This is a 4e Hack" for Next. I mean, we've already got the majority of people to accept Fighter Superiority Dice (or whatever they're called) which are a purely meta-game mechanic. I mean, sheesh, I can spend dice AFTER AN ATTACK to lessen damage. That's about as meta-game and disconnected as it gets.

So, layering on an AEDU structure isn't that much of a challenge. With the very flat math, we don't have to worry overmuch about the damage end of the powers - which isn't really the interesting bit anyway. The status effects and focus on tactical play wouldn't be that hard to add. An Encounters style structure is pretty much what we've already got.

I'm more worried about the other two pillars, but, I think the next rules update will see a lot of material there. At least, according to Mearls.

Yeah, it's the other two pillars where I feel the game has let me down the most. I don't care for their crappy martial classes abilities so far either, but I absolutely despise the skill system.

 

[Sunseeker]

Not quite.

My original point was, what's the difference in how you narrate either a 3W weapon daily or a X3 critical hit?

Yes, I understand the underlying differences. My point is, in the game world, they look identical.

The downside here is that the presentation of it as a critical presupposes that it should be rare. Now it most certainly is rare at lower levels, but by level 10 an ADEU fighter is going 3W pretty often.

But I think DDN might resolve this with proper tweaking of the MDD, allowing players to spend dice in order to throw more [W]'s on there. I certainly hope that they do, it's a very simple and IMO, elegant way to reproduce a great deal of the "I hit things really really hard!" 4e dailies. Again, we could also use a "fatigue points" system....but I think that has greater implications on the game as a whole rather than just giving fighters nicer things with more believability.