Libramarian
Adventurer
No damage rolls, whoa. That's pretty radical.
D&D 5E "But Wizards Can Fly, Teleport and Turn People Into Frogs!"
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I thought of minions straight away too - only instead of minion, we have the unbridled application of GM force.
I've long thought that a lot of those who don't like aspects of 4e, such as minions, like a lot more GM force in their action resolution than I do, and these examples just upthread are not dissuading me from that opinion!
Neonchameleon
Legend
It's ironic you are talking about lazy binding when invoking 3.X Fireball.
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
(Emphasis mine).
That is some of the laziest binding I've ever heard of. First it sets a minimum temperature - bronze melts at 950C or so. Second it gives not just a temperature but a heat passed into the object - enough to actually melt rather than sear (I can pass my hand through a bunsen flame but wouldn't leave it there). Third, it makes the idea of bronze armour utterly unworkable for an adventurer. Um... no.
Eager binding can, as there, cause serious problems.
Count me in as a third who thinks this way. I'm not sure anyone's supporting unlimited changing of effects. To refluff properly you need every mechanically defined point of the power or ability to match.
OK. First I'm going to leave 4e behind. 4e is, at least to me, massively mechanically associated - and far more associated than any previous edition of D&D. (1 minute combat rounds? What's happening in them? Who knows? And how is the fighter full-attacking? The powers structure not only shows you what's happening, but how the fighter is approaching things - and that Justin Alexander was unable to fill in the blanks between a demon using a minor action to select a foe, subordinate demons getting a bonus to attack that foe, and that demon becoming a focus for the person it's just targetted says IMO more about his imagination than it does about the power.)
Instead I'm going for a genuinely disassociated game. FATE. A mob sniper moves into position, creating the Perfect Position To Fire distinction, and is going to shoot Batman next action. He doesn't take the shot immediately because Batman's defences are good enough he's going to need all the bonusses he can get. And trying to Overcome the default to get the distinction was a lot easier than trying to attack Batman.
Batman's response is to drop a smoke bomb, creating the Warehouse Full of Smoke distinction. Right now the shooter can't see Batman because there's a giant cloud of smoke in the way. Never mind the free invocation of his Perfect Position To Fire (for how big this is, his skill is +3 and the dice average at zero. Invoking the aspect he set up gives him either a reroll of the dice or a +2 to the dice after rolling - Batman is probably dodging at +5 because he's Batman - a starting PC in FATE Core has a best skill of +4). But if he can't see Batman, his perfect position to fire isn't going to help. When Batman comes out of the smoke for the sniper the sniper will then be able to invoke their distinction unless Batman one-punches him on the way out. And if someone in the warehouse is smart enough to turn the sprinklers on to overcome the smoke cloud (whether before or after Batman has had the free invocation of it) our sniper is back in action.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
So... narrating the foregone conclusion of a fight with something simple like "You quickly overwhelm his weak resistance" is unbridled application of GM force but defining an opponent as a speed bump with 1 hit point--hit it and it's dead--is narrative positioning and Pemertonian scene framing? Is that the spin I'm hearing here?
Neonchameleon
Legend
I think it's that GM Force = The GM overriding the rules to serve the story or the desired outcome. Minions are part of the rules - using them straight doesn't need overriding.
G
Guest 85555
Guest
If we are talking about the gm having the authority to overide outcomes, I really think the why is very important here. When its done to keep the players on track, advance the story from the GMs perspective or what have you, I tend to dislike it. But if its because the rules happen to produce a really wierd or unbelievable outcome, then I am fine with my GM stepping in and saying "look 99% of the time, this mechanic works fine, but this case doesnt make sense, so I am going to overule it". I actually think that is an important part of why you have a GM in the first place.
Oops sorry about that eager/lazy are terms from my technical field. Eager binding means a binding is established before use upon creation of the object. Lazy binding means a binding is only created as the object is used.
So in this case, an eager binding to fiction would be assigning the flames and burst of heat to the Fireball effect -- all Fireballs look and act like this . A lazy binding would allow the special effects and appearance to shift as desired with each casting.
Neonchameleon
Legend
But 4e fireballs are made of fire. That's why they have the fire keyword and affect everyone in a set area. A reskin must match all the mechanical points of the fireball - and these parts are immutable. It's eager binding.
From people'es discussion that an effect can vary per invocation, I have to disagree. The keyword assignment may be eager, but the in-game presentation is lazy.
Look at how magical missiles can be presented and how a player's whim can vary those representations. Look at how any of the Fighter powers represent a variety of maneouvres/special circumstances/reactions as opposed to a particular thing. Classic lazy binding.
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