D&D 5E "But Wizards Can Fly, Teleport and Turn People Into Frogs!"

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I was like that for a long time but I've recently found thats often more fun not to be at total tyranny of luck.
I have a similar perspective in that I used to be much stricter about taking dice as rolled and 'living with the consequences' as it were. I too have found that I enjoy the game more if I force certain outcomes to be what I want them to be and skip through things that don't matter.

That being said, there's also a certain thrill that comes with unpredictability. I'll fudge, reroll, and ignore rules to varying degrees based on the style of game I'm running. To me, it's sort of like the rolled stats vs point buy debate; they're different and both valid for different reasons.
 

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Oh, hey, by no means am I knocking fudging. It's not to my taste, but, whatever floats your boat.

But, that does go a long way towards explaining the discrepancies between our points of view. It has a lot more to do with playstyle than system.
 

After reading the exchanges over the last page and change, I'm left wondering if there are going to be any inspired "player agency" posts.
 

that does go a long way towards explaining the discrepancies between our points of view. It has a lot more to do with playstyle than system.
It also, in my mind at least, raises questions about the playstyle/system distinction. Resolution by fiat and force is itself a type of system, after all.

If someone asked you for a key tenet of the DitV or BW systems, it would be "Say yes or roll the dice" - ie there is a systemic bias in favour of player force; but the GM can resist and insist on the framing and resolution of a conflict. (In the BW Adventure Burner, there is further discussion on this, including that the GM might exercise force in the other direction by declining to let some conflicts be framed - this is an analogue of the "credibility test" in HeroQuest revised or Marvel Heroic RP.)

Resolution by application of GM force is to me also a part of system. And as [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] seems to be alluding to in his post, it's a system that puts a stark light on the role of the players in action resolution. Clearly they provide colour and characterisation. What else do they do?
 

Resolution by application of GM force is to me also a part of system. And as @Manbearcat seems to be alluding to in his post, it's a system that puts a stark light on the role of the players in action resolution. Clearly they provide colour and characterisation. What else do they do?

Precisely that. I'm just wondering where the "player agency" advocation fits into this. I've seem them elsewhere in other situations. Using rules-prescribed GM force to frame and enforce or decline resolution is certainly systemic and were I an ardent speaker for "player agency", I wouldn't get my feathers ruffed. Suspending action resolution in favor of GM agenda or massaging away the authenticity of fortune resolution for the sake of story agenda?...well, were I an ardent speaker for "player agency, I might have cause to protest. As I've seen protestations elsewhere. I think I'd certainly be just as much, if not more, inclined to protest as I might in the case of "fail forward" task resolution or the retroactive establishment of in-game elements in "fortune in the middle" fortune resolution.
 

OK. First I'm going to leave 4e behind. 4e is, at least to me, massively mechanically associated - and far more associated than any previous edition of D&D.

Not to bring up a long, long, LONG dead argument (but yeah, I kinda am ;)), go re-read The Alexandrian's follow-up edit / revision of what "mechanical dissociation" means. By the revised definition, 4e is far, far, FAR AND AWAY the most "dissociated" edition of D&D (whether you like, dislike, or are ambivalent to that element of dissociation is purely a matter of personal preference).

You example of "1 minute combat rounds" has NOTHING to do with association or disassociation; it's a measure of abstraction. The choice to "engage in combat" is directly associated because both the player AND character make the same choice--to engage in combat.

The fact that 1e decided to abstract that choice as a 1 minute sequence of events only means it's a poor abstraction by your measure; it has nothing to do with association or dissociation.
 

You example of "1 minute combat rounds" has NOTHING to do with association or disassociation; it's a measure of abstraction. The choice to "engage in combat" is directly associated because both the player AND character make the same choice--to engage in combat.
But under that test - equivalence of PC and player choice - 4e is associated too. Consider CaGI: the PC decides to impose his/her will on the situation; the player decides to impose his/her will on the situation.

My issue with "dissociated mechanics" is this: clearly there is such a thing as metagame mechanics - that is, mechanics which contribute to or set parameters around resolution in ways that do not correspond to anything in the gameworld. But there is no actual evidence that using such mechanic must "dissociate" the player from the PC - as I've just indicated, it's perfectly possible to frame the choice to use CaGI in in-character terms.

Now you could say that CaGI has some extra feature - like the player deciding not to try it again not for any ingame reason but because, as an encounter power, it has already been used and hence is not available again until a short rest is taken. But nearly all decisions that players make are constrained in various way by considerations that have no correspondence to ingame states of affairs - from worrying about being low on hit points (which for those who play with Gygaxian hit points is at least in part a metagame state), to wondering how much loot you should carry out given that 1 gp = 1 XP and your a couple of thousand XP short of a level, to worrying about irritating your fellow players, to thinking "I won't start a combat now because the session has to break up in 10 minutes time and we won't get it finished".

So if the criterion of "dissociation" is "player choice not equivalent to PC choice" then CaGI need not be dissociated. And if the criterion of "dissociation" is "player choice is influenced by considerations that are external to the ingame situation" then nearly everything in an RPG is potentially dissociated.

In addition to the ingame/metagame contrast, the "dissociated" discussion also gets tangled up with methods of resolution (karma vs fortune).

By fortune resolution, I mean rolling dice to model probabilies. This is how 3E does skill checks sometimes - but not all the time. Sometimes you can take 10 - that is karma instead of fortune - either you can do it or you can't.

Another place in 3E where there is an interesting approach of "sometimes fortune, sometimes karma" is in spellcasting. It is clearly true, in the fiction, that spell casting can fail if the caster loses concentration: hence the rules for inclement weather, riding in bumpy vehicles, taking damage, etc. But obviously there are many other ways in which a person can lose concentration - eg if casting while walking, you might slip on a stone, or otherwise foolishly twist your ankle, and lose concentration that way. But the rules don't model that - except in certain circumstances defined in the rules for combat, casting and Concentration skill spell-casting is resolved via karma rather than fortune: the player declares it, and it either happens (if the PC has the spell known and preparedn as appropriate to his/her class) or it doesn't (if the PC doesn't have the spell known and/or prepared).

It's interesting to note that this karmic spell casting resolution lets the player dictate features of the gameworld, including the actions of (very minor) monsters - for instance, when a player says "I cast a Light spell" and marks it of his/her list, the player has also made it true, in the gameworld, that no mosquitoes or flies or bees or similar insects that might be hanging around are being so irritating as to require a Concentration check; that there is no pothole or puddle in the road into which the PC might slip; etc.

Come and Get It - especially in its pre-errata version - is karmic resolution. The player declares, in effect "I impose my will on my enemies" and the enemies comply. No dice roll is required. This is often characterised as "dissociated", as the player stepping outside his/her PC and making decisions for the NPCs/monsters, etc. But in my view it is no different from spell casting in 3E when no Concentration check is required. It is simply a situation in which the game rules allow the player's declared action to automatically succeed, even though it has an in-principle, ingame possibility of failing; and as a consequence of this karmic resolution, the player's declaration of an action can have implications for other features of the gameworld (eg the behaviour of NPCs; the behaviour of gnats and wasps; etc).

Those are the reasons why I don't think CaGI it is dramatically different from other, commonplace elements of D&D. The difference, for me, is not in the use of metagame mechanics, or the use of karma rather than fortune for resolution; it is in the application of those techniques in a sphere in which they have not normally been applied: namely, the resolution of martial endeavour.
 

@innerdude Probably not the best idea in the world but here I go anyway. My understanding of the hypothesis is such that there seems to overlap (whether the author likes it or not) between abstraction and dissociation. The character experiences the game world from first person perspective (not omniscient). He interfaces with the game world via the resolution mechanics. Those resolution mechanics are either granular or abstract. The more granular, the less "in-fill" is required by the player who renders the fiction (associates) thus providing the "missing pieces" for his character's perspective as he attempts to make sense of his interface with the game world by way of the resolution mechanics. The inverse is also true. The more abstract, the more "in-fill" is required by the player who renders the fiction (associates) thus providing the "missing pieces" for his character's perspective as he attempts to make sense of his interface with the game world by way of the resolution mechanics.

So, there he is, with his 3/2 attack rate and his 30 feet of movement in the 1 minute combat round. Those are the limits of his action economy...in 1 minute. In the first round he moves 30 feet and attacks a guy, taking all of 5-10 seconds at the uppermost threshold. This is, of course, abstract in the extreme. From his perspective, the perspective of the resolution mechanics (his attack matrix, his movement rate and the action economy within the framework of 1 minute), something is happening in that other 50 - 55 seconds...but what? Its left for the player to "in-fill" that majority of time of the combat round (that is not canvassed by the resolution mechanics) and thus associate it within the fiction for his character such that he may have some semblance of understanding of what exactly is going on...because presumably he doesn't inhabit a world of rock-em sock-em robots or stop motion combat.

So, if something like Encounter Powers (associated perhaps as openings seized upon that happen about 1/combat) or CaGI (Stength attack abstracted as a physical challenge or an athletic ruse versus enemies insight/perception - Will) is "dissociated" (meaning that its default setup requires some "in-filled" explanation or "post-hoc justification" for it to "make sense" from the perspective of the characters experiencing the game world by way of the resolution mechanics), then surely those 50-55 seconds of combat that requires 100 % "in-fill" for it to be "associated to" and "make sense for" the characters experiencing the game world is as well?
 

. . . if the criterion of "dissociation" is "player choice is influenced by considerations that are external to the ingame situation" then nearly everything in an RPG is potentially dissociated.

The concept of dissociation has nothing to with HOW the player's choice is influenced---is it influenced by peer pressure? A desire to fulfill a "thematic" role? A desire to demonstrate system mastery to his group peers? To try and "get inside his character's head" in actor stance? To try and do something "awesome"? In terms of "associated" versus "dissociated," it doesn't matter.

The reasoning behind why a player chooses to make a game choice is not relevant. It's simply a question of, Does the player's choice--however it is made or influenced inside or outside the game--directly map to the SAME choice made by the character in the game milieu?

Justin Alexander explicitly states in the revised essay that any time you have to mentally "map" a REASON for a player choice to map to the in-game one, you've already entered the realm of dissociation. The reason "Come and Get It" is inherently dissociated is because the player and character ARE in fact making different choices. Yes, they're both choosing to "influence the outcome of the scene," but that's pretty much EVERY CHOICE EVER MADE IN AN RPG. The player chooses to influence the scene, the character chooses to influence the scene. The basic question of "influencing the scene" isn't the problem, it's how well the mental constructions of that "influence" map relative to each other.

The player is choosing, "I'm going to invoke this mechanically guaranteed artifice of the rule system that assures the character's enemies will, in fact, move in a specific direction, at a specific rate of movement."

The character is IN NO WAY making that same mental equivalence. "I'm going to invoke this Power I possess that is GUARANTEED to make those bad guys move toward me, in exactly the same way every time I do it."

At best, the character is thinking, "Gee, I've used this technique in the past, and it seems to get enemies to come toward me, maybe it'll work this time."

There's a fundamental disconnect--a dissociation, if you will--between the mental rationalization of the player, and the in-game mental rationalization of the character.

Interestingly, this is a particular phenomenon for CAGI only because it's not considered "magic." A cleric casting a spell with the identical mechanics as CAGI isn't dissociation, because the player and character CAN assume that the power IS guaranteed--Both the player and character can rationally think to themselves, "I'm going to invoke this Power I possess that is GUARANTEED to magically compel those bad guys move, in exactly the same way every time I do it."

Really, I highly suggest reading the revised essay. I don't say that to change your opinion of 4e, CAGI, or your preferred playstyle in any way. I only say that because it really does bring significantly more clarity to the concept and its baseline premises, so when people start discussing it (whether you care or not LOL) :), you'll at least be starting from the same ground-level.
 
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There are other related issues, too. For instance, "narrating the foregone conclusion of a fight" is, as a technique, somewhat similar to "Say yes or roll the dice". Which is, in turn, an approach to the mechanics that treats them as about distributing and regulating narration, rather than primarily modelling the world. Which in turn is a 4e-ish approach to the mechanics. Yet 4e is typically criticised for this very feature.

This is really getting to the point of overthinking the whole issue. Narrating the foregone conclusion of a fight isn't necessarily about distributing and regulating narration rather than primarily modeling the world. It's probably much more about controlling the pacing of the game. Is the fight significant? Are resources likely to be an issue? Are there going to be immediate repercussions of the fight (alerting other groups who may join an ongoing fight)? If not, save the players time by getting their plan an adjudicating without rolling the dice. Honestly, GMs have been doing this long before 4e came along.
 

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